Author Topic: Wet Gluten Mass Tests on Caputo Rinforzato, Caputo Pizzeria, All Trumps bromated  (Read 14991 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

After I posted, I recalled that at one time I purchased a bag of the Pillsbury Best bread flour. I couldn't remember what happened to it, so I checked my pantry. There, in the back, completely hidden behind other things, was a 3-year old bag of Pillsbury Best bread flour in a sealed plastic storage container. The first thing I did was to check the bag to see if the word bleached was on it. I did not find it. So, that is something that remains to be checked.

I decided to discard the flour but out of curiosity I decided to make a 9-ounce dough ball and to do a gluten mass test on it. I wanted to see the effects of long aging on the quantity and quality of the gluten mass. So, I conducted the gluten mass test. I could tell fairly soon in the process that the quality of the gluten mass was sub-par. Pieces of the gluten mass wanted to break off, and I had to struggle to keep the gluten mass intact. In fact, some pieces did break off but since I was working over a sieve, I caught the straggler pieces that broke off and reincorporated them into the main body of gluten. After 15 minutes, I weighed the gluten mass. It weighed 58.6 grams, or 2.07 grams. That value almost did not make the Master list we created.

The above test seems to suggest that aging of flour is not the best thing for either the quantity or quality of gluten. My case was perhaps an aggravated one since a flour held for three years in a Texas heat environment has to be a harsh thing for a flour to endure without penalty. I am glad I did the test if only to know the consequences of aging a flour over a long period of time.

As far as the remains of your alcohol test are concerned, I do not see any reason to keep them.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Norma,

After I posted, I recalled that at one time I purchased a bag of the Pillsbury Best bread flour. I couldn't remember what happened to it, so I checked my pantry. There, in the back, completely hidden behind other things, was a 3-year old bag of Pillsbury Best bread flour in a sealed plastic storage container. The first thing I did was to check the bag to see if the word bleached was on it. I did not find it. So, that is something that remains to be checked.

I decided to discard the flour but out of curiosity I decided to make a 9-ounce dough ball and to do a gluten mass test on it. I wanted to see the effects of long aging on the quantity and quality of the gluten mass. So, I conducted the gluten mass test. I could tell fairly soon in the process that the quality of the gluten mass was sub-par. Pieces of the gluten mass wanted to break off, and I had to struggle to keep the gluten mass intact. In fact, some pieces did break off but since I was working over a sieve, I caught the straggler pieces that broke off and reincorporated them into the main body of gluten. After 15 minutes, I weighed the gluten mass. It weighed 58.6 grams, or 2.07 grams. That value almost did not make the Master list we created.

The above test seems to suggest that aging of flour is not the best thing for either the quantity or quality of gluten. My case was perhaps an aggravated one since a flour held for three years in a Texas heat environment has to be a harsh thing for a flour to endure without penalty. I am glad I did the test if only to know the consequences of aging a flour over a long period of time.

As far as the remains of your alcohol test are concerned, I do not see any reason to keep them.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting about your gluten mass test on your old Pillsbury Best Bread flour.  Maybe you donít want to add my gluten mass test to the Master List either, (even if we find out the right protein for the Pillsbury Best Bread flour) because I checked my bag after my last post, and the bag said best if used by Jan 04 2012, so my Pillsbury Best Bread flour is older too, but not as old as yours.  Some small pieces also wanted to break off of my gluten mass test and I also had to put them back into the gluten mass.  I donít know if your dough ball felt drier than normal when using 3 ounces of water to 6 ounces of flour, but mine did.  I donít know if that was from my Pillsbury Best Bread flour being old, or if gluten doesnít form as well with a lower protein flour.  The rest of my bag is going into the trash also.

When I posted at Reply 48 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg177823.html#msg177823 about trying a test such as:  Once you have washed out the starches, you end up with raw wet gluten. If you soak the ball of gluten in pure ethyl alcohol, the glutenin and the gliadin will separate out. The gliadin is the sticky part and will form long tiny silky looking strands when touched with the finger. The glutenin on the other hand will look and feel like tough raw rubber.

Do you think after the long while that the last gluten mass test was left in the isopropyl alcohol, it did really separate the gliadin and glutenlin, or do you think the gluten mass just degraded?  I am just curious about if the isopropyl alcohol really can separate the gliadin from the glutelin or if something else was going on.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Do you think after the long while that the last gluten mass test was left in the isopropyl alcohol, it did really separate the gliadin and glutenlin, or do you think the gluten mass just degraded?  I am just curious about if the isopropyl alcohol really can separate the gliadin from the glutelin or if something else was going on.

Norma,

After JimmyG opined on the matter, I did not pay any more attention to the idea of separating the glutenin from the gliaden. Other than satisfying one's curiosity, I did not know what value there would be in the separation of the two components of the gluten.

Peter

Offline norma427

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I know this experiment really might not be accurate, but to satisfy my own curiosity, I had to try and see if gliadin and glutenin could be separated in a simple experiment.  I had posted before I thought the gliadin and glutenin had started coming apart when using alcohol.  I left the substances in the alcohol a few more days and today tried to see what they might feel like separated.  Although I didnít get exactly all the gliadin and glutenin separated, I found it interesting how sticky what I guess is the gliadin.  I could not take two hands to try and stretch it because I had to hold the camera with my one hand, but it seems to be the stretchy substance and the rubbery substance seems to be the glutenin.  Even after repeated washings of my hands there is a shiny substance on my fingers and the small pieces seem really sticky.  Of course in the picture there is still some alcohol that isnít evaporated.  I guess all of the albumins, and globulins were removed from the gluten mass test, but donít know. 

http://www.landfood.ubc.ca/courses/fnh/301/protein/protq4.htm

At least I satisfied my own curiosity, but know this wasnĎt a real scientific experiment.  I am going to let the experiment sit out for a little while to see how it looks a little later.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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I did the gluten mass test on the King Arthur Cake Flour this morning and donít know why but the mix seemed dry compared to others I have done with 6 ounces of flour and 3 ounces of water.  It seemed to take longer to knead and form the dough ball.  I used the same method as before in washing the dough ball under cold running water for about 25 minutes (that was longer than the standard of 20 minutes so far), or until the water ran clean. The gluten mass was then let to sit on a paper towel for about a minute after it was first dabbed with paper towels. The weight of the gluten mass test fluctuated when I went to change the scale from grams to ounces.  The grams kept falling some after I weighed the gluten mass test and then the resulting weigh in ounces also went down.  The weights I recorded were 57.02 grams and 2.008 ounces for the weight of the gluten mass test with the King Arthur Cake Flour.  I was surprised that the gluten mass with the King Arthur Cake flour did weigh as much as it did. 

I donít know if these protein percentages are right on the fresh loaf, but thought I would post the link at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/22310/high-gluten-wheat-flours-amp-gluten-percentage-table

I also have the Ultragrain flour is anyone is interested in me doing a gluten mass test on that flour.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

Thank you for conducting the gluten mass test on the King Arthur cake flour. That is the flour that King Arthur sells under the name Queen Guinevere (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-queen-guinevere-cake-flour-3-lb). I have updated the gluten Master list below to include the gluten mass numbers you came up with in your recent test. As you can see, the KA cake flour is at the bottom of the list, which is where it should be for the flours that are on the Master list. It's possible that it took you longer to conduct the gluten mass test because the KA cake flour contains more starch (carbohydrates) than regular flours used to make bread and pizza dough, as can be seen at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/nutritional-analysis-bakery-flour.html. Also, the KA cake flour is bleached, which might possibly have some effect on how the gluten is separated out of the dough during the washing operation.

I am familiar with the thefreshloaf.com list of protein percentages. If you look at the bottom of the list, you will see that that list came from November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ and was so acknowledged.

If you don't mind doing a gluten mass test on the Ultragrain flour, I would be interested in seeing the results.

Master Gluten Mass List (as of 4/13/12)
KASL (King Arthur Sir Lancelot): 4.1 ounces, or 116.235 grams (14.2 +/- 0.2% protein)
All Trumps (bromated, bleached): 3.81 ounces, or 108 grams (14.2 +/- 0.3% protein)
Power (Pendleton): 3.8 ounces, or 107.73 grams (13.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
Kyrol (bleached, bromated): 3.74 ounces, or 106 grams (14.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
ADM Gigantic: 3.42 ounces, or 96.89 grams (14.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
Occident (ConAgra): 2.7 ounces, or 76.55 grams (12.4% protein)
KABF (King Arthur Bread Flour): 2.68 ounces, or 75.978 grams (12.7 +/- 0.2% protein)
Caputo 00 Rinforzato: 2.66 ounces, or 75.43 grams (12.5 +/- 0.5% protein)
Caputo 00 Pizzeria: 2.54 ounces, or 72.12 grams (11.5-12.5% protein)
Mondako (bleached, Pendleton): 2.354 ounces, or 66.75 grams (12.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
Better for Bread (aka Harvest King): 2.306 ounces, or 65.3751 grams (12.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
KAAP (King Arthur All-Purpose): 2.297 ounces, or 65.11995 grams (11.7 +/- 0.2% protein)
Ceresota All-Purpose: 2.114 ounces, or 59.93 grams (12% protein)
Caputo Extra/Blue 00: 2.06 ounces, or 58.38 grams (11 +/- 0.5% protein) (Note: expiration date of flour = 2010)
King Arthur Cake Flour Blend (unbleached): 2.008 ounces, or 57.02 grams (9.4% protein)

Peter

Edit (4/13/12): Corrected the King Arthur cake flour entry; the referenced cake flour blend can be seen at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1332349611259.pdf
EDIT (9/26/14): For the Wayback Machine version of the KA nutrition chart, see http://web.archive.org/web/20111207190447/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/nutritional-analysis-bakery-flour.html

Offline norma427

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Norma,

Thank you for conducting the gluten mass test on the King Arthur cake flour. That is the flour that King Arthur sells under the name Queen Guinevere (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-queen-guinevere-cake-flour-3-lb). I have updated the gluten Master list below to include the gluten mass numbers you came up with in your recent test. As you can see, the KA cake flour is at the bottom of the list, which is where it should be for the flours that are on the Master list. It's possible that it took you longer to conduct the gluten mass test because the KA cake flour contains more starch (carbohydrates) than regular flours used to make bread and pizza dough, as can be seen at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/nutritional-analysis-bakery-flour.html. Also, the KA cake flour is bleached, which might possibly have some effect on how the gluten is separated out of the dough during the washing operation.

I am familiar with the thefreshloaf.com list of protein percentages. If you look at the bottom of the list, you will see that that list came from November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ and was so acknowledged.

If you don't mind doing a gluten mass test on the Ultragrain flour, I would be interested in seeing the results.

Master Gluten Mass List (as of 4/13/12)
KASL (King Arthur Sir Lancelot): 4.1 ounces, or 116.235 grams (14.2 +/- 0.2% protein)
All Trumps (bromated, bleached): 3.81 ounces, or 108 grams (14.2 +/- 0.3% protein)
Power (Pendleton): 3.8 ounces, or 107.73 grams (13.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
Kyrol (bleached, bromated): 3.74 ounces, or 106 grams (13.8 +/- 0.3% protein)
ADM Gigantic: 3.42 ounces, or 96.89 grams (14.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
Occident (ConAgra): 2.7 ounces, or 76.55 grams (12.4% protein)
KABF (King Arthur Bread Flour): 2.68 ounces, or 75.978 grams (12.7 +/- 0.2% protein)
Caputo 00 Rinforzato: 2.66 ounces, or 75.43 grams (12.5 +/- 0.5% protein)
Caputo 00 Pizzeria: 2.54 ounces, or 72.12 grams (11.5-12.5% protein)
Mondako (bleached, Pendleton): 2.354 ounces, or 66.75 grams (12.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
Better for Bread (aka Harvest King): 2.306 ounces, or 65.3751 grams (12.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
KAAP (King Arthur All-Purpose): 2.297 ounces, or 65.11995 grams (11.7 +/- 0.2% protein)
Ceresota All-Purpose: 2.114 ounces, or 59.93 grams (12% protein)
Caputo Extra/Blue 00: 2.06 ounces, or 58.38 grams (11 +/- 0.5% protein) (Note: expiration date of flour = 2010)
King Arthur Guinevere Cake: 2.008 ounces, or 57.02 grams (7.0 +/- 0.2% protein)

Peter



Peter,

The King Arthur Cake Flour I did the gluten mass test on was the King Arthur Cake Flour that is unbleached and is called Unbleached Cake Flour Blend http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/unbleached-cake-flour-blend .  Is the Queen Guinevere the same as the regular King Arthur Cake Flour blend that I purchased at the supermarket?  I didnít think it was, but could be mistaken.

I didnít notice that the list came from Novemberís Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.  That November sure gets around doesnít he?  :)

I will probably do the gluten mass test on the Ultragrain flour either this weekend or this coming week.

Thanks for updating the Master Gluten Mass List.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

Thank you for the clarification. I had read some time ago that King Arthur was going to an unbleached version of its cake flour but when I checked the Guinevere cake flour I saw that it was bleached. It is just plain cake flour, albeit bleached. The King Arthur cake flour blend you purchased from the supermarket includes unbleached cake flour but it is also malted and has cornstarch. I have no idea as to the amount of cornstarch and whether it had any effect on your test. And the protein content of the KA cake blend is 9.4%. I have corrected the Master gluten mass list to reflect the King Arthur cake flour product you used.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Peter,

I didnít look at the ingredient list on the King Arthur cake flour blend until after I did the gluten mass test and then posted my results.  I didnít even know King Arthur made another kind of cake flour, until you posted about the Guinevere cake flour.  I also have no idea if the cornstarch in the blend made the gluten test less reliable or not, but the water did run clear.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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I did a gluten mass test on the GM Full Strength flour this morning since I have some of that flour now, before I do a gluten mass test on the Ultragrain flour.  I used the same methods as before in using cold running water until the water ran clear.  The cold running water method took about 23 minutes.  The weight of the gluten mass test on the GM Full Strength flour was 76.23 grams, or when the scale was changed to ounces it weighed 2.689 ounces.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

Thank you for doing the gluten mass test on the General Mills bromated and bleached Full Strength flour. I have added it to the Master gluten mass list, as noted below.  

Master Gluten Mass List (as of 4/27/12)
KASL (King Arthur Sir Lancelot): 4.1 ounces, or 116.235 grams (14.2 +/- 0.2% protein)
All Trumps (bromated, bleached): 3.81 ounces, or 108 grams (14.2 +/- 0.3% protein)
Power (Pendleton): 3.8 ounces, or 107.73 grams (13.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
Kyrol (bleached, bromated): 3.74 ounces, or 106 grams (14.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
ADM Gigantic: 3.42 ounces, or 96.89 grams (14.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
GM Full Strength (bromated, bleached): 76.23 grams, or 2.689 ounces (12.6 +/- 0.3% protein)
Occident (ConAgra): 2.7 ounces, or 76.55 grams (12.4% protein)
KABF (King Arthur Bread Flour): 2.68 ounces, or 75.978 grams (12.7 +/- 0.2% protein)
Caputo 00 Rinforzato: 2.66 ounces, or 75.43 grams (12.5 +/- 0.5% protein)
Caputo 00 Pizzeria: 2.54 ounces, or 72.12 grams (11.5-12.5% protein)
Mondako (bleached, Pendleton): 2.354 ounces, or 66.75 grams (12.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
Better for Bread (aka Harvest King): 2.306 ounces, or 65.3751 grams (12.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
KAAP (King Arthur All-Purpose): 2.297 ounces, or 65.11995 grams (11.7 +/- 0.2% protein)
Ceresota All-Purpose: 2.114 ounces, or 59.93 grams (12% protein)
Caputo Extra/Blue 00: 2.06 ounces, or 58.38 grams (11 +/- 0.5% protein) (Note: expiration date of flour = 2010)
King Arthur Cake Flour Blend (unbleached): 2.008 ounces, or 57.02 grams (9.4% protein)

Peter

« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 08:38:48 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline bakerboy

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I jumped in on this topic because I was interested in testing my flour for gluten content. This weekend I lost approximately $3000 due to the fact that my pizza and bread flopped. No volume. Catastrophic. I attempted to remix but found the dough very slack and sticky. Not our dough. We use North Dakota mills Dakota King High Gluten flour. It's strong flour,  but this batch wasn't. I've only had this happen one other time since I've been open. I have two different pallets of this flour. One we've been using and one that we will use this week. I took 6oz of each flour and mixed them with 4oz of water.  Kneaded both for about 5 min. One was very slack and sticky, the other balled up nicely. I rested both for 5 min then washed them until the water ran clear. Dried both the best I could and weighed them. One weighed 2.7oz. The other weighed 3.3 oz.  The last time this happened I had my distributor send a bag back to the mill to be tested. They didn't get around to sending it back to the miller for almost a month (aging changes things). The miller said it was fine. My loss.
I think the flour is green, young. Anyone think the difference of .6oz in a total dough ball weigh of 10 oz is significant?  Any insight is appreciated

Offline bakerboy

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Btw. I would post some photos but I'm using an iPad with safari so.....

Offline norma427

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bakerboy,

Sorry to hear of your loss due to the fact that your pizza and bread flopped.

I sure donít know if your flour is green, or too young, but the two results you had with the gluten mass tests sure seems to point to some kind of problem with the same brand of flour. 

Do you think maybe the one pallet of flour might have been stored under damp conditions somewhere?  Maybe if it was that might have been what changed it.  I really donít know enough experience with flours to know what a green flour acts like.

I would call your distributor again and tell them what happened.  Surely they must have some kind of insurance to cover what happened with your flour, or what might be wrong with it. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Barry,

I am not a flour expert but your description of the dough as being very slack and sticky leads me to wonder whether your flour has excessive starch damage. That condition is not very common in the U.S. It is more common outside of the U.S. From time to time, Tom Lehmann has discussed the subject of excessive starch damage at the PMQ Think Tank forum. For example, see his posts on the subject at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8973&p=61209&hilit=#p61197, http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5570&p=34303&hilit=#p34303 and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6350&p=40484&hilit=#p40484.

As far as the 0.6oz differential is concerned, it is hard to say whether that is significant, particularly with only two data points. You would perhaps have to repeat the tests a few more time to get more data points to analyze. However, if the problem is excessive starch damage, that may not affect the gluten content. That aside, the gluten mass tests that we have performed on the forum is a crude way of ascertaining the type of flour used in a dough sample. Where Norma and I have used such tests has been primarily in reverse engineering exercises where we have samples of doughs but do not know the type of flour that is used in the doughs. What we are after is fairly simple. We want to know whether the flour is a high-gluten flour, a bread flour, an all-purpose flour, or something else. To get greater precision, one would have to use a Glutomatic machine.

You might send Tom a PM or an email to get his take on what you have been experiencing.

Good luck, and please let us know whether you are able to identify the problem.

Peter

Offline bakerboy

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Thanks for the input. I'm thinking that it's pretty significant. Out of a 10oz dough ball I'm getting 27% and 33% wet gluten.  But even more important to me was how the 2 samples felt. An absolute world of difference between the two.  I'll email the pics to my home pc and post them

Offline Pete-zza

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Barry,

As I understand it, excessive starch damage and poor gluten quality can coexist. It has something to do with how the protein fails to develop properly as a result of the event (e.g. freezing or other weather-related event) that adversely impacted the wheat. And it appears from what you say that you can detect that quality degradation (and quantity as well) in one of the lots of flour. That would seem to make the differences in the protein/gluten quality of the two flour lots material, particularly if one of the flour lots consistently has lower gluten mass values than the other. Poor gluten quality and quantity may manifiest itself in being unable to develop the gluten properly during mixing and kneading and to adequately retain the gases of fermentation.

Peter

Offline bakerboy

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Thanks for the links Pete. It very well may be starch damage after reading up. I have noticed that the last time this happened the flour sat for 3 weeks and it was great. We order every 2 weeks and closed for a week over the 4th of July. The flour was terrible when I ordered it and fine when we came back, which leads me to think that it also may be an aging issue. Maybe shipping green flour for a little "freeway aging" to fill quotas when things get tight. A call to North Dakota Mills sent me to the voicemail of the manager in charge of my region. Left a message. No return call as of yet. Will call again today. One other time when this happened I sent the flour back to my distributor and they kept "forgetting" to send it to the miller for almost a month!  Test results came back fine.
It also seems to happen when I purchase a partial skid of flour. For example the last time I ordered I ordered 75 bags. A skid of 50 and 25 extra. The skid was fine. All from the same lot. The 25 were terrible.  Just an observation. Thanks again

Offline Pete-zza

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Barry,

It is hard to imagine that North Dakota Mills shipped you bagged "green" flour. Unless maturing agents (additives) are added to the flour, it can take weeks, or even longer, for the flour to naturally age. And you need air (oxygen) for the flour to age, which I don't think you would get, or get sufficiently, while the flour is in bags. It is true, however, that immature flour will yield a poorer quality gluten structure that may also be stickier, and you can end up with flatter, denser loaves. For further discussion, you might check out the blurb I found through a Google search at http://books.google.com/books?id=XqKF7PqV02cC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=effects+aging+flour+%22green+flour%22,+oxidation&source=bl&ots=hpuVjjQeyN&sig=Mib__r9rI5rng36E4rzNnHCh_K0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=maa7T9jTH4qc2QWL0NjCCQ&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false.

Peter

Offline bakerboy

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That's interesting. Thanks for the link Pete.  The flour in question is on its way to the mill directly to be tested.  I'm anxious to find out.