Author Topic: i need recipe help  (Read 1856 times)

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Offline ryanbinkley

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i need recipe help
« on: April 15, 2011, 09:55:15 PM »
I have a wood fired oven that is built into a masonry heater and I am going to test a bunch of different setups this weekend to try and even out the temps some.  I think I could use about 8 10-12" pizza's and I need a good dough recipe.  I have tried a bunch of different recipes before, but none have been too fantastic.  Part of my problem is that I usually try a different oven setup AND a different recipe at the same time, and so I can't really zero in on what is going wrong (I recently learned from reading here that over fermentation can lead to scorching on the bottom....which is my main problem). 

So what I need is a good, stock, basic dough recipe/kneading regime that I can use this weekend to try a bunch of different oven setups with. 

The only flours I have access to are: KABF, Bobs red mill flour (http://www.bobsredmill.com/organic-unbleached-white-flour.html) and Stone Buhr flour (http://www.stone-buhr.com/flours/unbleached-white-bread-flour/)

My requirements are:
1. Use my sourdough starter (about 70-75% hydration I think) but can use ADY also
2. Some kind of cold ferment
3. Ability to stand up to high heat (700-900 degree oven deck)

Other than those three, I will try anything. Although I have used the pizza dough calculator on this site a bunch, I don't really get the effect of gluten, protien, hydration on the dough.  My hope is to get one that can take high heat and not char the bottom so fast.

soooooo, any ideas?


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2011, 08:06:57 AM »
ryanbinkley,

It sounds like you have all the elements ready to make fantastic pizza. I agree with you that all the separate components are difficult to put together into a cohesive workflow. There are just a few things you need to know to get started.

1) You can make amazing pies with KABF, you just need to pay attention to the protein level (~12.7%), which is higher that most normal AP. That means you need to get the mix stage right so you are developing the gluten to it's best potential.

2) Your sourdough starter might do better working at room temps. Using a smaller percentage of the starter will allow you to keep the dough for extended periods of time, and then use the fridge to cool it down as needed towards the end of the ferment. This gets you that flexibility you are after in terms of bake time. I am assuming a room temp of around 70 degrees. If it is much higher, your ferment times may be shorter.

Here is a basic recipe for high heat cooking. You can adapt this in any way you want, as this is not the only way to do things:

KABF Flour 100%
Water 62% <-you can go higher if you want, and feel comfortable with high hydration doughs
Salt 2.3%
Starter 10% for 18 hours, 5% for 24-26 hours at room temp

Use the site dough calculator to get your recipe size.

By Hand:

Put 90% of the water amount in a bowl. Dissolve the active starter in the water, and then add the flour. Mix with your hands until incorporated. Let sit (autolyse) for 20 minutes. Add the salt and the final 10% of water (sorry Calvel!). Squeeze it in until incorporated. Let sit 15 minutes. Grab a side of the dough, and pull it over onto itself. This is a stretch/fold. Rotate the bowl and do this 3-4 times. Let sit 15 more minutes and repeat. Repeat again as many times as needed, until the dough seems more smooth and elastic. Bulk ferment for half of the total time frame you are using (including the time stretching), and then ball the dough for the remainder of the ferment.

Mixer:

Do the same as above through adding salt and final water. Mix on the lowest speed for 3 minutes, and then on the second speed for 4 minutes. This is called an "improved" mix. But you should note what your dough is starting to look like during the second stage. You want it to just start to look smooth. If you go too far, it may over develop the dough. When fermenting at room temp, I like to let the yeast have a chance at some gluten development. Your mixer type will also have an effect on how fast the dough develops.

If at the end of your ferment you notice that things are starting to ferment too far, you can always park your dough in the fridge for 15 minutes to slow fermentation down. You can also put the dough in the fridge for the entire balled stage if you like, and watch it's development to see when it is ready.

You can cook this dough in the 700's with ease, just make sure the heat from above is enough to cook the top as fast as the bottom (to avoid your bottom burning). I would not go above 800 though, as the KABF is malted.

Have fun and let us know how it turns out.

John
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 08:15:17 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline ryanbinkley

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2011, 01:09:08 PM »
Thank you vey much!

I have a few follow up questions:

-you mentioned a rest before mixing all the ingredients.  I think I've heard that called an autolyse?  But I thought that was done with all the water included and only 75% of the flour, is this a different method?

-I've always kneaded by hand on the counter top, never in a bowl.  Also, I've always done it for at least 8 minutes, usually closer to 12-15....was that way too much?

Thanks for the recipe, I will try it tomorrow. 

I am going to test a few different oven setups (adding fire bricks to the floor to find the right deck height) to try and cook the top faster. I can usually cook the bottom in 2 minutes but the top has been coming out underdone and the dough not fully cooked (maybe too thick?)

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2011, 01:25:38 PM »
Thank you vey much!

I have a few follow up questions:

-you mentioned a rest before mixing all the ingredients.  I think I've heard that called an autolyse?  But I thought that was done with all the water included and only 75% of the flour, is this a different method?

-I've always kneaded by hand on the counter top, never in a bowl.  Also, I've always done it for at least 8 minutes, usually closer to 12-15....was that way too much?

Thanks for the recipe, I will try it tomorrow. 

I am going to test a few different oven setups (adding fire bricks to the floor to find the right deck height) to try and cook the top faster. I can usually cook the bottom in 2 minutes but the top has been coming out underdone and the dough not fully cooked (maybe too thick?)

You are welcome. You can do an autolyse many different ways. The way I outlined is based on a bread making technique by Chad Robertson. Some versions do not include the yeast, so do, etc. Feel free to pick one that works for you.

As for the kneading, go right ahead. If you try the stretch and fold method above, you may find that it works just as well. What is most important is getting the dough to a stage that is just barely starting to look smooth, if you are using KABF.

For a 12 inch pizza, I usually go with 250-280 grams.

Others should chime in as well with suggestions.

John

Offline ryanbinkley

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2011, 02:57:15 PM »
Right on, thanks for the info. I will let you know now it goes!

Offline ryanbinkley

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 02:14:45 PM »
Just wanted to say thanks again for the recipe, the pizzas turned out great and I learned a ton about my oven.  Although I am still working balancing the wood heat, and there are still a few minor mods I need to make to the oven, I think it is getting close.  I could definitely tell that this dough held up to the heat better than my old recipe, even at 800 it wouldn't char for almost 2 minutes, allowing the top more time to cook. 

Also, I discovered a new technique where, if the bottom is starting to char early, I can just slide the peel in and lift the pie up 6 inches.  At the top of the oven, it is super hot, it was like holding the pizza under a broiler.  It broiled the top in about 10 seconds.....i know this might be technically cheating but it worked great and allowed me to make a quick adjustment if the bottom of the oven was too hot. 

Thanks again for the help!

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 02:23:12 PM »
Fantastic looking pizza and crumb. I am glad the recipe worked out for you. What was the formulation you used?

John


Offline ryanbinkley

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 08:54:57 PM »
Another question, almost a year later:

In general, what is the effect of the protein content in your flour, on the finished dough?  Does it affect gluten development, or should you adjust the hydration level for different protein amounts?

Offline pizza dr

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 11:41:51 AM »
John

I know that this was an old post but I just read it.  First off, that is really nice of you to go through so much detail for someone asking for a recipe...

I did notice that your starter % are comparatively high.  Do you still mix your dough with those percentages?  All of your pies are gorgeous so I may up my %'s next bake>

Scot

Offline ryanbinkley

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 12:32:50 PM »
Looking back on this post, I am surprised that he had the starter percentage so high as well.  At the time, I was probably using 3-4% starter, and some ADY, but since then I have started increasing the starter percentage quite a bit, and am now in the 8-9% range with no ADY.  The reason I started increasing it was because I wanted to be able to take starter directly out of the fridge, right into the dough without having to waste 12 hours building it up.  Sort of combining the feeding of the starter with the bulk fermentation to save a step.  In order to get it to rise quickly I ended up increasing it over time, to about 9%, and it seems to be working fine, it rises fully in about 12-15 hours, quicker if it's warm.



Offline dellavecchia

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 01:06:59 PM »
For 18 hours total workflow at 68 degrees, yes I use 10% of flour. I want more flavor for the short ferment  That would go down in the summer. For 24 hours or more I use between 2-5% of water. This gives me flexibility in bake time without over rising. But the ball stage needs attention with a higher temp.

John

Offline ryanbinkley

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2012, 08:16:26 PM »
Thanks for the info.  Any advise for the protein question above?


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2012, 09:51:13 PM »
Thanks for the info.  Any advise for the protein question above?



Ryan - Protein level affects mix time, fermentation time, and hydration - they are all interconnected. You match the protein to your final product and workflow, or you adapt your workflow and final product to the protein count of the flour. Either way, more protein will allow for higher hydration and longer fermentation. But you need to develop that gluten as well with more mixing or stretch and folds.

John

Offline ryanbinkley

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2012, 06:25:09 PM »
Thanks for the info.  Is there a table or some kind of rule of thumb that says the optimal hydration for a certain protein amount?  I can match fermentation/development to a given hydration, just not sure how to match hydration to the protein content. 

Online TXCraig1

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2012, 06:30:40 PM »
But you need to develop that gluten as well with more mixing or stretch and folds.

Or fermentation time.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: i need recipe help
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2012, 06:36:12 PM »
Thanks for the info.  Is there a table or some kind of rule of thumb that says the optimal hydration for a certain protein amount?  I can match fermentation/development to a given hydration, just not sure how to match hydration to the protein content. 

No. The physical characteristics of the particular flour are also important. For example, KAAP and Caputo 00 are similar in protein content but feel VERY different with the same hydration. Also, what is ideal for your individual situation (ambient temp, oven, etc.) might not be ideal for me and vice-versa even with the exact same ingredients.

Experimentation is your best bet.

CL
Pizza is not bread.