Reverse Engineering DiFara's Pizzas

[jever4321]

Chau, That pie looks like art. Nice job. That makes me want to be more creative in topping selection. Keep up the good work.

[dmcavanagh]

Nice pies Tran Man. I've never been to DiFara's, but I'd rather have one of your pies. Now I've got to make some doughs and clone your clone! 

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks, you guys are too kind.  I'll do better next time.   

Chau

[hotsawce]

Chau,

Details on the baking method?

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

Details on the baking method?

Baked in the home oven.   Oven was preheated for about an hour at 500F.  The last 10 min of the preheat, I moved my Primo stone to the 2nd from the top shelf under the broiler to get it superhot.  Turned the dial to broiler while I was opening up the skin and topping the pie. 

Loaded the pizza on a hot stone and turned the dial back down to 500F.  Baked it up high for a few minutues hoping the heat trapped between the broiler and the hot stone would give me a better spring. 

After a few minutes up high, the crust is pretty much set.  I move the stone with the pizza on it lower towards the bottom of the oven otherwise it would burn to quickly.   For some odd reason, my VIking professional oven only heats from the top (best I can tell).  The pizzas finish baking out at the bottom for another 4 minutes or so.   Once I'm happy with how melted the cheese is, I will also pick up the pie with the metal peel and rim the crust against the broiler element to get it darker.  This gives it abit more character in look and crunch.    The only downside here is that the bottom of the pie can get a bit steamed if sitting on the metal peel too longer during this process.  Occassionally I will also put the pie back on the hot stone for 30s or so to crisp it up again.

Hope that helps,
Chau

[msheetrit]

after reading this thread i know that theres "difara" i am fascinated with it. this person dominc de marco 44 years making pizza, growing hes own herbs, i am sure it one of the best places in the world just by looking and reading about it.
peter well done, keep up the good work, your pies looks amazing.
tell me is the oven within an oven really make a diference instead od just stone from the bottem?
i read your word i slice about it also, but i wanted to ask you.
 

[Pete-zza]

tell me is the oven within an oven really make a diference instead od just stone from the bottem?
i read your word i slice about it also, but i wanted to ask you.
 

Michael,

At the time I experimented with the oven within an oven, I thought the approach had merit. However, when reverse engineering and cloning a pizza like the DiDara pizza, I would prefer to make an 18" pizza since that is the size that Dom DeMarco makes. In the past, when I have made 18" pizzas in my home oven, I had to use either an 18" pizza screen alone or a combination of that screen and my undersized pizza stone. I don't know at this point whether I can fashion an oven within an oven to make an 18" DiFara pizza clone. When I return home from vacation I may take a look at my oven dimensions to see if an 18" DiFara clone pizza is possible.

Peter

[msheetrit]

what is the Ideal time for rising of the dough outside? "emergency dough"
i dont think difara would have any problem making the dough at morning, i understand his sons makes the dough 2 hours before?
the reason i am asking is because i read somwhere in the forum Interview with itlian pizza maker ( i cant the remember the professional term for it)
he said that he makes hes dough fresh outside in the morning and that the dough is outside for 6 hour.
today i made pie, the dough was only outside and for 6 hours, after 2 it had sour smell, after baking i couldent gain color to it like normaly happens, and the crust wasent ready from the inside, lets say i had better dough before.
i think after making all kind of fresh dough that the ideal time is about 80 minute.
what do you think guys and peter ?
after the dough rise and about 70% from its size, if its oversize... is there a point that it is not for use ? or if droping the air out and reshape it and reproofing, can be use for baking ?
here some picture of 2 pies i made today.
usually the crust and from the bottem have more color, and tasted better
the first one (the pie that with no green peper on it) i used
fresh mozzarella
hard mozzarella
cheder
with the Influence of this thread after the pie was ready i sprikeld it grated parmesan cheeze (not parmigiano raggiano like dom demarco), olive oil and bazil leave.

[Pete-zza]

Michael,

Dom DeMarco uses a combination of high-gluten flour and 00 flour. His deck oven is also an old deck oven that operates at higher temperatures than the current models of deck ovens. He also bakes his pizzas for a fairly long time. I suspect that the high-gluten flour component of his flour blend and the oven factors are responsible for the crust coloration of his pizzas. In a standard unmodified home oven, it may be harder to get comparable crust coloration in an emergency dough situation like Dom's, even if sugar is added to the dough (Dom does not use any sugar in his dough). Ordinary table sugar, or sucrose, is a complex sugar and has to be broken down into simple sugars for use in the Maillard reactions that contribute to crust coloration. That decomposition of sucrose can take many hours, although some of it may show up in the finished crust through caramelization. What I have found to work better as a substitute for sucrose in an emergency dough is honey. It already has simple sugar components.

If you are interested, you can learn a lot about emergency, or short-term, doughs by scanning the compilation of such doughs at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8297.0.html.

Also, to show you that you were not alone in getting less crust coloration from your 6-hour dough than you hoped, see Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7522.msg64710.html#msg64710. If I had added some sugar or honey to the dough formulation I posted in Reply 2, I believe that I would have ended up with more crust color. Adding dry dairy whey would have achieved similar results.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

What's your best bet at a percentage ratio on HG flour and Caputo for a DiFara?

60/40?  75/25?  70/30?

I got All-Trumps and Caputo.

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

What's your best bet at a percentage ratio on HG flour and Caputo for a DiFara?

60/40?  75/25?  70/30?

I got All-Trumps and Caputo.

Mike,

Dom DeMarco once told me (and I believe Pete Taylor as well) that he used 75% Caputo 00 and 25% All Trumps high-gluten flour, both by volume. However, you might keep in mind that Dom does switch vendors from time to time. Also, scott r has recommended a 50/50 Caputo/AT blend for home oven applications, as he noted at Reply 148 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.msg39315/topicseen.html#msg39315.

Peter

[msheetrit]

thanks peter
i dident what to copy difara pizza i know about the blends of flour i am folowing the progress of the thread and as i was saying.
keep up the good work. i will look in the links i hope i will find answers there.
the 6 hours problem is with adding sugar
if its 1.5-2 hours it doesent happen. thats what wired to me.

[Essen1]

Mike,

Dom DeMarco once told me (and I believe Pete Taylor as well) that he used 75% Caputo 00 and 25% All Trumps high-gluten flour, both by volume. However, you might keep in mind that Dom does switch vendors from time to time. Also, scott r has recommended a 50/50 Caputo/AT blend for home oven applications, as he noted at Reply 148 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.msg39315/topicseen.html#msg39315.

Peter

Thank you, Sir. And thanks for the link.

I wonder, how can Dom make the same quality pies, or crust for that matter, if he changes ingredients (flours) around every so often? Or did, and does, he indeed use the same blend for the last 40 plus years?

[chickenparm]

Thank you, Sir. And thanks for the link.

I wonder, how can Dom make the same quality pies, or crust for that matter, if he changes ingredients (flours) around every so often? Or did, and does, he indeed use the same blend for the last 40 plus years?

It is my belief,that Dom's toppings is what makes his pies so successful.I also believe he is so experienced at making pizza,it does not mater that much where his flours come from.He is able to make them very similar,since he does not seem to allow much proofing times after the dough is mixed.So even if the crust is a bit bland from being the same day mix,his toppings will compensate for his pizza and still taste the same or similar to most.

I could be wrong,but its the one thing that I believe makes his pizza taste very much the same after its cooked.If anyone disagrees,just say the word and why.
 

[Essen1]

Chickenparm,

I know where you coming from. I should have worded my question differently.

We, as home amateur pizzamakers, always seem to struggle when using different flours trying to make the same crust. They never come out the same. How can one business change flours on occasion and still come up with the same light, airy and foldable crust like nothing has changed?

That was basically my question and my point. I wasn't so much after his toppings. The crust is more important for now. I'm not going to waste superior quality in toppings with a mediocre crust. There's got to be a balance.

[chickenparm]

Mike,
You did not need to reword anything,I know what you are saying and agree.
That aside,

I do not believe his pizza was the same all the time when switching suppliers.

I believe his toppings made up for what may have been lacking in the dough.Watching the video,he does not seem to be that worried about it..once the dough is mixed up,its done and he uses it.

He does not worry about hydration,percentages,proof times,fermentation or etc. Like we all do on the forum.

That tells me as long as he has a usable dough,he can make a similar pizza with his toppings as long as whatever flour he chooses makes a dough he can use for pizza.Hes' no fool,don't get me wrong,but I believe as long as a flour he uses gives him the same or similar eyeball results,he can do it.Thats another thing that makes him good at what he does.

When you add his toppings,the oil,cheeses and etc,its going to make up for the lack of dough flavor...just the fact he does not cold rise them for at least 24 hours tells me that.

I too have ordered several pizzas from a NY place and not one of them were 100% identical...yet they use the same sauce,cheese and dough.The cook times and toppings made the difference more than the dough itself.

[Pete-zza]

I wonder, how can Dom make the same quality pies, or crust for that matter, if he changes ingredients (flours) around every so often? Or did, and does, he indeed use the same blend for the last 40 plus years?

Mike,

As I noted at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4530.msg38107.html#msg38107, Dom DeMarco has gone through different 00 flours, although I did not personally confirm that he used/uses the Colavita 00 flour. That possibility came from a blog somewhere. Dom has also used Colavita olive oil instead of the Filippo Berio olive oil, and he has apparently added the canned LaValle San Marzano tomatoes to his list (see Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12182.msg119683/topicseen.html#msg119683), along with the Vantias. Dom will also occasionally go with the grana padano cheese along with, or instead of, the Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese. I have read reports and seen videos that say that Dom uses Romano cheese but I have never seen that confirmed. At one time, I believe that Dom had a local source of fresh basil. According to a NYT article and other reports, his present basil is from Israel.

As you can see, Dom does switch ingredients around. But they are not overly dramatic changes that are likely to drastically change his product in the eyes of customers. After over 40 years of making pizza dough, no doubt he has mastered how to use several different brands of 00 flour to produce the results he is after without upsetting his customers because of the changes.

Peter

[fireman117]

Hi Peter,
Can I ask you to go back in time to Reply 130. I'm going through the posts as time permits, and the DiFara pizza is the style and standard I'm looking to get to, (maybe by the next lifetime)!  I want to stick to one style for now, which is NY. I've been getting pretty good results, and I like the part that Dom seems to work kind of “off the cuff” to some extent and that fits my personality well!

I'm definitely a novice, but, I'm getting reasonably good at using the version of the Lehman recipe you supplied me with some time ago, with I think a 57 or 58% hydration, using a standard bread flour, and a 3 day cold rise. So this is what I’d like to stick with for now. I could up the hydration if you felt it was worth while. I now have a peel and I've recently used a "quick dough" recipie with a higher hydration successfully.

Now here is my questions. You wrote in reply 130 concerning the ingredients:

“For the sauce and cheeses, I tried to use essentially the same “quality and quantity” approach as used by Dom DeMarco, as I have come to understand them. For the sauce, I pureed whole tomatoes from a can of Famoso DOP San Marzano tomatoes, along with some fresh, seeded tomatoes and fresh basil (a mixture of Napoletano and Genovese Italian, both from my garden), fresh (from my garden) Italian oregano, dried Sicilian oregano, a bit of Sicilian sea salt, and sugar. Because the sauce was on the thin side, I drained it in a colander to remove some of the water”.

Is this essentially the spice set you felt he used in his sauce, and since it is now winter and no tomatoes are available from the garden, do you think those “on the vine” grocery tomatoes would work OK?
Could you give me an idea on the ratio of canned to fresh?
And just two more things, sorry… any garlic detected, and was the sugar noticeable, or was there just enough to take the edge off.

Help with the sauce would be greatly appreciated as I think it’s my biggest weak spot.
As far as the other ingredients go, I can get them all here in town.

I have a gas convection oven that will cook at 550 degrees and I'd like to give your “oven in an oven” a try. Are those tiles something that you can get from a “Home Depot” type place, and what are they called?

As always, thanks for the help, and I'll post some pics of the results.

Eric

[Pete-zza]

Eric,

Now here is my questions. You wrote in reply 130 concerning the ingredients:

“For the sauce and cheeses, I tried to use essentially the same “quality and quantity” approach as used by Dom DeMarco, as I have come to understand them. For the sauce, I pureed whole tomatoes from a can of Famoso DOP San Marzano tomatoes, along with some fresh, seeded tomatoes and fresh basil (a mixture of Napoletano and Genovese Italian, both from my garden), fresh (from my garden) Italian oregano, dried Sicilian oregano, a bit of Sicilian sea salt, and sugar. Because the sauce was on the thin side, I drained it in a colander to remove some of the water”.

Is this essentially the spice set you felt he used in his sauce, and since it is now winter and no tomatoes are available from the garden, do you think those “on the vine” grocery tomatoes would work OK?
Could you give me an idea on the ratio of canned to fresh?
And just two more things, sorry… any garlic detected, and was the sugar noticeable, or was there just enough to take the edge off.

I do not recall asking Dom, nor did he volunteer, the details of his sauce. I just tried to match the general type and quality of ingredients he used. So, I suggest that you do the same. Presumably Dom has to deal with whatever fresh tomatoes are available in winter, so I would say that you should be able to use whatever fresh tomatoes are available to you where you shop. I would use mostly canned San Marzano tomatoes and a small amount of fresh tomatoes. I do not recall the taste of garlic or sugar. The pizza I had at DiFara's when I visited had so many toppings that they would have masked some of the ingredients in the sauce.

I have a gas convection oven that will cook at 550 degrees and I'd like to give your “oven in an oven” a try. Are those tiles something that you can get from a “Home Depot” type place, and what are they called?

The tiles I used came from Home Depot. You can see what they look like from Replies 15 and 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2580.msg22751.html#msg22751.

Peter

[jerrymypie]

That is a great piece you wrote.

Do you know for sure that it is an uncooked sauce? I believe he uses the same sauce for the sicilian and the regular? I've read in some other posts that upon visiting people have seen Passata in the store as well.

Thank you,