Author Topic: NY style dough attempt (Failed)  (Read 2042 times)

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Offline Patdf

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NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« on: March 09, 2012, 06:42:47 PM »
Hello all,
   Well I attempted my first dough making. I just bought the Bosch Compact mixer also and had to try it out. I read the article by Pete zza about using the Tom Lehmann recipe on a scaled down home version, and went on mostly his way of making the dough. I also used the pizza calculator so here's the hybrid recipe I used.
flour 284 gr
water 176 gr @ 100 degrees (bottled spring water)
IDY 1.42 gr Fleischman's
salt 6 gr Morton iodized fine salt
oil 4.5 gr virgin olive oil.
I put the water and salt in the mixer bowl and stirred a bit, I then combined the flour and IDY in a separate bowl and mixed it, then added it to the mixing bowl for about two to three minutes to all the flour was off the sides and a smooth appearance. I then added the oil and mixed for another two minutes. The temperature at the end was 75 degrees F.
I then cut it up into two balls rolled them in the mixing bowl with a little oil to coat them placed it on a cookie sheet that was covered with saran wrap and covered the whole cookie sheet with plastic wrap and placed it in the refrigerator.
The dough never rised and it's been 22 hours so far. I'm thinking that after I put the oil in the bowl the dough ball had a tenacity to just hang on to the dough hook and not really knead. Any help would be appreciated, I'd like to try another batch tonight so I can eat LOL.
Thanks
Pat


Offline jever4321

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2012, 07:55:14 PM »
Sounds like the yeast died. That happend to me once when I used water that was too hot.
-Jay

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2012, 08:00:23 PM »
Pat,

I don't see anything in your dough formulation that looks out of order. However, there a few things that you might change.

First, you may want to rehydrate the IDY in the warm water for about five minutes rather than putting it in with the flour. The reason for doing this is because your total mix/knead time is less than 5 minutes. This is actually a Tom Lehmann recommendation. See, for example, Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg174903.html#msg174903.

Second, if you are having a problem incorporating the oil into the dough, next time you might try adding it to the water. Normally, I do that when the oil quantity is on the high side, typically when it gets above several percent. Otherwise, I intervene with hand kneading when the mixer does not do the best job incorporating the oil into the dough.

Third, the amount of yeast you used, 0.50%, should be sufficient for a one-day cold fermentation, although it may be better for a two- or three-day cold ferment. You didn't indicate, but often dough balls that are in free form on a cookie sheet, they can slouch or slump and appear not to have risen noticeably. If your dough balls are the same shape and size and you want to use them soon, you can let the dough balls temper at room temperature for about 3 or more hours before using. You want to see a noticeable rise during the temper period. As I have noted many times before on this forum, Lehmann doughs are low-yeast doughs and don't always rise significantly. But that doesn't mean that the dough balls have failed. They just need some warming up. Or, letting them cold ferment for another day or so. If you wish to speed things up the next time, you should be able to use around 0.70% IDY for a one-day cold ferment, especially if it is on the cool/cold side where you live.

You really didn't do anything wrong. And you got the desired finished dough temperature for a home application, which shows that you were attentive to detail. I'm confident that you will eventually succeed.

As I was posting, I saw that Jay responded. If you put the IDY in with the flour, you should not have a problem with the water at 100 degrees F because the flour buffers the yeast from the effects of the warm water. In fact, yeast producers often recommend using water at up to 120 degrees F when the yeast is mixed in with the flour. I have gone as high as around 130 degrees F without incident (I was really trying to speed things up).

Peter

Offline Patdf

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2012, 08:46:12 PM »
Hi Peter,
   Thanks for the reply. As you mentioned about being on a cookie sheet I just looked in the frig and did see that the dough balls are touching (they weren't last night) I left at least an inch between them. That's what you were talking about slumping on a cookie sheet. As for the 100 degree water, that was my guess/starting point. What tempature water would you recommend?. Also I cook my pizza's at 650 to 700 degrees (on bricks) (does that have any recipe requirements or considerations) I believe that sugar should not be used since it could burn. I read that somewhere. Regarding the lesser amounts of yeast, I read on your thread that the first pizza (home batch) you used more yeast and the second batch a week later you used less but liked the first reciped better. As you can tell by your descriptions and the pictures of your pizzas I'm trying to duplicate your pizza's. For now it looks like my dough from last night may be good (we'll see tommorrow). But for the future, what would you recommend for a recipe? would you use more yeast? ADY instead of warming up the IDY. Mixing time a little longer? (I choose to go with a shorter mixing time do to Tom's responce to your letter to him. Any recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Pat

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2012, 09:36:46 PM »
Pat,

In one of the links referenced in Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg174903.html#msg174903, Tom Lehmann recommends a prehydration temperature for the IDY of 95 degrees F. You might go with that, although 100 degrees F is not likely to make much of a difference. I am a fan of using IDY over ADY, but either can be used subject to using the correct amounts and using them correctly. Cake yeast would also be a good choice but most people have a hard time finding it in their local supermarkets.

You are correct that is is often inadvisable to use sugar in a dough that is to be used to make a pizza to be baked at very high oven temperatures on a stone surface. Also, Tom Lehmann does not recommend using sugar in his NY style dough for a cold fermentation application unless the dough is to be held and used beyond a day or two. Beyond that, you could add about 1% sugar, without likelihood or fear of the bottom crust darkening prematurely. But that is something that can easily be tested by a simple experiment. 

The high-yeast Lehmann dough that you mentioned is the one described in the opening post of the Lehmann thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5303.html#msg5303. By inadvertance, the amount of yeast I used to make the dough described in that post was too high, and I noted such in the Note at the bottom of the post. Since the purpose of that thread was to adapt Tom's commercial dough formulation to a typical home environment with a typical home oven, I corrected my error and thereafter tried to hold true for the most part to the basic Lehmann dough recipe.

My approach on what version of the Lehmann dough formulation to use is usually governed by the particular application. I have found that different people have different preferences, especially in the area of hydration value and the amounts of oil and/or sugar to use. Fortunately, they can experiment to their hearts' content by using the Lehmann dough calculating tool or the expanded dough calculating tool (http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html). Once you are able to make a credible Lehmann dough, I suspect that you will want to change it in some way to meet a particular preference. That sort of thing happens all the time. People typically get bored and want more excitement (more flavor, more open rim, chewier/crispier, thinner, etc.).

For dough mixing and kneading times, my practice is to mix/knead the dough to the point where it is slightly underkneaded and rely thereafter on biochemical gluten development. That time will usually depend on the dough batch size and the type of mixer used. We have members who use only a few minutes of mixing/kneading, and we have members who knead their doughs in excess of 20 minutes in some cases. And they use all kinds of mixers, including stand mixers, food processors and bread machines. Of course, there are those who use hand kneading.

Peter

Offline Patdf

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 09:47:55 PM »
Peter,
  Again thank you for your advice. I'm going to try the prehydration of the yeast and also the 145 minus the temperature of the flour for the water temperature being used for the flour.
I'll let you know how it comes out.
Thanks again,
Pat

Offline FeCheF

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 10:34:37 PM »

I then cut it up into two balls rolled them in the mixing bowl with a little oil to coat them placed it on a cookie sheet that was covered with saran wrap and covered the whole cookie sheet with plastic wrap and placed it in the refrigerator.
The dough never rised and it's been 22 hours so far.


Just incase this hasnt been covered, How cold is your fridge. My fridge is too cold and dough never rises even 3 days later. So it might not even be that your yeast died. I have since started fermenting my dough in my basement which is 50F to 55F year round. Also room temp ferment doughs like jerrymacs is a good dough to try if you havent already. I too thought i had bad IDY when i really didnt.

Offline jever4321

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 10:58:05 PM »
I put my yeast in warm water, but since I killed it once with water that was too hot, I now dip my finger in it to make sure it isn't too hot. Then I let it bubble for about 10-15 minutes. After I mix my dough, I scale and ball my dough and put it in an oiled container. Then I cover it and let it stand at room temperature for 1-2 hours before I put it in the fridge. This is if I'm using it in 24 hours. That usually gets the yeast working.
-Jay

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 11:00:58 PM »
Patdf,

I had this same problem using those jars of fleschmanns yeast I grabbed the ones in the back of the stock (the freshest ones jars they had) I even saw the guy stocking them and got one from the box. Every single time my dough didn't rise even usings a ton of yeast.

So this is my advice to you ditch the fleschmanns yeast and order some SAF yeast from amazon its 100x better just keep it in the freezer and it lasts for years trust me you will be glad you did I was. get the instant SAF yeast.
Jamie

Offline chickenparm

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2012, 12:22:54 AM »
Wow,Im shocked of the troubles here.I can use IDY,SAF or Fleischmanns Yeast and get excellent results everytime.

Now with IDY,SAF,etc.,dont worry about heating up the water.Cold,or luke warm,the yeast will work fine.

I have used cold bottled spring water and the yeast activated just fine.It was a bit slower due to the cold,but once it reached all reached room temp,the dough grew nicely.

Here is what I suggest.

Pour the water or any liquids you use into the mixer bowl.In another bowl,add your flour,salt,sugar if used,and the IDY yeast.Mix a little bit then pour all this dry ingredients into the water in the mixer bowl.

Run the mixer until done and put your dough up for the rise after balling it by hand.






-Bill


Offline Patdf

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2012, 07:56:14 AM »
Again thanks for all the replies. I'm taking notes for the next time. I'm going to look for the SAF yeast, I did here it's good. Another question regarding the rise. How much size difference should I see? will it increase by 50 %, double in size? Also when it comes out of the frig and stays at room temperature for 2 to 3 hours will it also increase in size? and by how much. I'm trying to gauge it. I know when I bought store ready made dough it would fill the bag, that's at least double in size.
Regards,
Pat

Offline atom

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2012, 08:15:32 AM »
Since nobody mentioned this I thought id throw it out there... make sure you are using Instant Dry Yeast as your recipe describes and not Active Dry Yeast. If you are using ADY you can still use it, increase your yeast by about 25% and "proof" it in 100-110F water with your sugar source or just some flour mixed in.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2012, 11:12:43 AM »
For yeasts that you want to pre-activate......fill a glass with hot water from your kitchen tap and take it's temp.,mine is always right around 110. By the time I transfer this to a plastic measuring cup that is sitting on my scale, add yeast and it's foaming within a few minutes.

Bob
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Offline Patdf

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2012, 11:26:57 AM »
When preactivating, is the amount of water taken from the recipes amount? Example if the recipe calls for 8 ozs, do you use 2 oz for preactivating and 6 oz for the flour.
Thanks,
Pat

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2012, 12:12:40 PM »
I'm with @chickenparm, can't understand all the problems with yeast. The packages DO have an expiration date on them, and I've used yeast way beyond the date and had no problem. As for the water amount, yes you count the water you use to hydrate the yeast, after all, it is still going into the dough. I Never hydrate pizza dough with hot or warm water and I've never had a problem doing it that way.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2012, 12:21:45 PM »
Well, that's the way I do it.....and the other 6 oz. would go into the original cup to "clear out" any trace yeast.But I suppose one could mix it all together at once, keeping in mind the final temp. you are wanting. I start with the smaller amount first because I like to add just a pinch of sugar and that way I can quickly confirm that the yeast is alive.....

Bob

p.s.,I never have problems with activating my yeast either....but sometimes some people do,such as newbies with only 11 posts....that's why they come here for help.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 12:31:46 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2012, 12:30:31 PM »
When preactivating, is the amount of water taken from the recipes amount? Example if the recipe calls for 8 ozs, do you use 2 oz for preactivating and 6 oz for the flour.

Pat,

Yes, the water used to rehydrate the IDY should be part of the formula water. If you are trying to achieve a particular finished dough temperature, the recommended way of rehydrating the IDY (this applies also to ADY) is to use water at about 4-5 times the weight of the yeast to rehydrate the yeast. The temperature of the water should be around 100 degrees F and the rehydrate time should be around 10 minutes (although five minutes might be adequate for IDY). Once rehydrated, the yeast can be added to the remainder of the formula water, whose temperature should ideally be at a value to achieve the desired finished dough temperature. In a home setting, I don't think you have to be very precise in the amount of formula water to be used to rehydrate the IDY (or ADY, if used). In your case, with 176 grams of water (a little over 6 ounces), I think an eighth or a quarter cup of water should be sufficient to rehydrate the IDY. If you use all of the formula water at 100 degrees F, you may find it harder to achieve the desired finished dough temperature. But even that isn't necessarily fatal. It might just mean that the dough ferments faster, especially if you also allow the dough to rest at room temperature before going into the refrigerator. When I try to achieve a particular finished dough temperature, my practice is to go directly to the refrigerator after the dough has been made and balled.

A lot of people pay little or no attention to matters such as water temperature, finished dough temperature, or a lot of other things. The above is simply to explain the way you would want to go about things if you are trying to achieve a particular finished dough temperature. If you were a professional, those are the methods you would want to use, simply to be sure that your dough is ready day after day at the precise times that customers come into your establishment and order pizzas. My theory is that it helps to know how and why things work and the best practices. Once I have that under my belt, I generally know the effects, both good and bad, of any changes I might anticipate and avoids or minimizes a lot of trial and error and time spent diagnosing problems. I have the time and am patient enough to use that approach. That approach isn't for everyone.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 12:32:28 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline tdub154420

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2012, 12:55:33 PM »
Preactivate IDY?  I have never done this...I didn't think it needed to be done.  I've had pizzas where I had to pop the bubbles in the oven using IDY without activation.  As for water temperature I find the only thing that seems to effect is the amount of time needed to knead the dough.  If I use cold water it takes a while to knead the dough tell it properly window panes, if I use warm-ish water it will knead a lot faster.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2012, 01:25:10 PM »
Preactivate IDY?  I have never done this...I didn't think it needed to be done.  I've had pizzas where I had to pop the bubbles in the oven using IDY without activation.  As for water temperature I find the only thing that seems to effect is the amount of time needed to knead the dough.  If I use cold water it takes a while to knead the dough tell it properly window panes, if I use warm-ish water it will knead a lot faster.
I have never needed to either.....but reply #2 above gives reason to where this can sometimes be beneficial
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2012, 01:29:53 PM »
tdub154420,

It looks like you might have missed the two links in Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg174903.html#msg174903. For those who might also have missed those links, they are http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7527&p=51038&hilit#p51038 and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7684&p=52689&hilit=#p52689.

There are few instances where one needs to rehydrate IDY. Pat's mix/knead times fell under one such scenario. Another such scenario, not relevant here, is when a VCR (vertical cutter mixer) is used, and where the recommended total mix/knead time might be as short as 90 seconds. When one is making a Chicago style crust, where a biscuit-like crust is desired that is best achieved by keeping the mix time short (you don't want to develop the gluten), then rehydrating IDY also makes good sense.

The above represents the only three times that I am aware of where it is desirable to rehydrate IDY. Some people may also do it out of habit, as where they went from ADY, which requires rehydration, to IDY. In all other cases, the IDY can just be mixed in with the flour and/or other dry ingredients.

Peter