Author Topic: NY style dough attempt (Failed)  (Read 2073 times)

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Offline Patdf

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2012, 02:09:22 PM »
Hello all,
   Bob you mentioned adding a pinch of sugar to the preactivation process. First I wouldn't think it makes much of a difference but I don't use sugar in my recipe because I read that if you use a brick floor or stone at high heat ( I use 650 to 700 degrees) it effects the dough. Second what happens if you just use water to hydrate the yeast? does the sugar just make it act faster?
Thanks for all the help,
Pat


Offline atom

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2012, 04:00:08 PM »
While the warm water is what brings the yeast "back to life" a pinch of sugar gives the yeast a little food to get it started. Another benefit to doing this method is that your yeast mixture will make a foam, which will ensure that your yeast is going to actually do its job before you add in all those other ingredients and spend the resources and time on a dough that will never work. I do not add sugar to the proofing stage in my own recipe, i have a flour and water mixture I use and it works great for me. For a new beginner though the sugar is recommended, and a very small amount is not going to have much effect on your dough especially if you are baking at 500f or lower.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2012, 05:12:28 PM »
Pat,

A "pinch" is about 1/16 teaspoon, and that amount of sugar is about 0.2 grams. Your 284 grams of flour alone will have about 3.7 grams of sugars, in the form of mono-and disaccharides. The effects of the pinch of sugar and the natural sugars in the flour on bake performance will be about zero.

Yeast can only consume simple sugars, called monosaccharides. Sucrose, or ordinary table sugar, is a disaccharide. Before it can be used as food by the yeast, it has to be cleaved into the two monosaccharides fructose and glucose. This happens when the water (the yeast hydrating liquid) to which the sugar is added is warm. Otherwise, you would have to use an acid or an enzyme. So, adding a pinch of sugar to yeast in cold water may not help, or you might have to let the mixture sit until it warms up.

To atom's point, sugar added to the hydrating liquid will have a positive effect insofar as giving the yeast a jump start. To prove this, this afternoon I put 1/2 teaspoon of SAF Red IDY into each of two identical containers, along with 1/4 cup of warm water at a temperature of 95 degrees F. I added a pinch (1/16 teaspoon) of sugar to one of the containers but not to the other. I stirred both containers to dissolve the yeast, and let the containers sit at room temperature for 10 minutes. At the end of that time, the liquid in the container with the sugar was frothy with a profusion of very small bubbles. The liquid in the other container was as flat and lifeless as when I stirred it.

Peter



Offline Patdf

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2012, 10:09:19 AM »
Hello Pete,
  Going back to all the replies and inputs on this thread I have learned alot. First of all on your mention on the amount of yeast I used was suffiecient for a 1 day rise but better on a 2 to 3 day rise was noted, and  that dough balls left free form on a cookie sheet doesn't look like they rise much, but look like they slump or slouch. All is true. After the first 24hrs I did notice that the dough balls had touched each other (originally having space between them) and after 48 hrs they were touching and growing on to each other. I took them out of the frig last night and sat them on the counter for about 3 to 4 hrs and you could see some of the gas bubbles under the skin. I used the dough last night and was very happy with the taste, the only thing I messed up was making the rim I didn't leave enough dough for the outline so I didn't have much dough on the outside. But that being said the crust that was out there was still chewy and delicious. That won't happen again I'll make sure I spread the dough correct the next time. The amount of help from you and other members who replied was priceless and I want to thank you all. I can go back now on the thread and write down the notes for the next time.
Thanks again,
Pat

Offline chickenparm

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2012, 12:36:05 AM »
Pat,

I wanted to add,when you make dough,you can actually control the amount of rise the dough will have when cold risen for a day or so or room rise.

IDY or SAF,I love this stuff.Just mix it with the flour and add to the water,and it always works.(Unless its dead)

You will find,when you follow a recipe,if the dough says(for example) to use 1/2-1 tsp of IDY yeast,you can actually cut back to a 1/4 tsp and do a cold rise for 2-3 days.

The more yeast you use,the faster the dough blows up,given everything is working fine.Cut back some,and slow the growth down.A few experiments will tell you what is right for you.

The fridge cold rise slows the growth down,so it doesnt look like its growing much.But take the dough out and let it warm up for 2-3 hours,it will start growing nicely.

-Bill

Offline Patdf

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2012, 09:13:04 AM »
Hello all,
  I made another batch of NY style and paid more attention to what I learned when starting this thread. This time a did a double batch to see the difference that leaving the dough to cold ferment longer would do (I read that the longer the ferment the more flavor/complexity will come out). I increased more water temperature from 100 degrees to 105 degrees to reach a final dough temp between 80 to 85 degrees, and I bought and used small plastic containers to proof my dough (so I could see the rise better) since the last time I laid them on a cookie sheet and really didn't have a vertical reference point. As I said I did a double batch that would be 568 gr KABF and 3 gr IDY and used 352 gr 105 degree water. I mixed for a total time of just under 5 minutes (taking note that under 5 minutes you didn't have to proof your yeast and over 5 minutes you should).The final dough temperature was 81 degrees. I made 4- 8oz balls. Last night I had 2 pies (48 hrs in the frig) it had just under a double size rise. The dough was excellent, not the big bubbles that I see in Pete zza pictures (I'm working on that) but the crust was very chewy and leathery and great taste. Now I have two more dough balls in the frig and when I looked at them this morning (2-1/2 days) they more than doubled in size (substantially more) than last night. A question on cold rising, how long can you keep the dough in the frig with out it going bad?, does it get better over time?, and at what point does it stop rising? A note that Chickenparm said that you can control the rise by decreasing the amount of yeast. That would obviously be a trial thing, but is there must be a minimum amount that must be used otherwise the dough would never rise. Is there a ratio between the flour and yeast weight. I'm very happy with the taste last night and hoping that the dough gets better over time. Again thanks for everyones help.
Regards,
Pat



























« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 09:36:11 AM by Patdf »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2012, 10:01:06 AM »
Pat,

With 3/568 = 0.53% IDY, you will perhaps want to use the dough fairly soon. That would place the dough at around three days. That is a duration that some people feel is about the max that one should use for a NY style, although with less yeast and keeping everything as cold as possible I have made cold fermented dough that has lasted a couple of weeks or more without developing off flavors in the finished crust. There is a mathematical relationship between yeast quantity (in relation to flour) and temperature but it is quite complicated. If you can handle math and are interested, I can point you to a discussion on the subject.

I am a believer in learning by doing. So, if you are willing to sacrifice one of your remaining dough balls, you might let that dough ball remain in the refrigerator until its last breath. You will see changes that signal that the end is near. You might even keep a bedside vigil with all of the members of your family present, and with a member of clergy there to administer last rites. Then try to open up the dough ball to see how it behaves. If you are able to make a skin out of it, you might then try to make a pizza out of it (you might want to keep it simple in terms of toppings in case you lose the pizza). Then report back on your results and observations. That will be your obituary on the matter.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 10:05:42 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Patdf

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2012, 10:10:09 AM »
Hi Pete,
   Thanks for the prompt reply. I think I'll have it tonight meaning a 3 day rise. I just remembered that you said in the beginning that that amount of yeast was better for a 2 to 3 day rise. If I did want to make it for a 24 hr rise, in regards to what I'm using now in yeast amount would you suggest using more yeast? if so how much more.
Thanks again,
Pat

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2012, 10:26:50 AM »
Pat,

I think I would go with around 0.65-0.70% IDY for a 24-hour cold fermented dough. If you would like to be more precise on the yeast quantity and want to do your own yeast calculation, and you know when your dough about doubled in volume (in total hours) while in the refrigerator (and you know your refrigerator's temperature), and you would like the new dough to double also, you can try using the methodology described in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572.

Peter

Offline Patdf

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2012, 01:36:53 PM »
Hi Peter,
   Thanks for the link. It's going to take me awhile to absorb the information on that thread, but in the mean time. I'll go with your information.
As always thanks again,
Pat


Offline Patdf

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2012, 07:46:02 PM »
I just had the three day rise dough tonight with neighbors and they and myself was very impressed with the additional day rise. I'm almost leary of making a 24hr rise with such great taste in the additional days.
Thanks for all the inputs,
Pat

Offline atom

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Re: NY style dough attempt (Failed)
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2012, 08:47:35 PM »
I'm glad to see that your pizza making is going better! I remember the days when I had the exact same results you did. Before you know it you will be investing in a stand mixer, fancy baking stones and weird types of yeasts!   When you have come up with that crust you feel u love, be sure to share your recipe.


 

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