Author Topic: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?  (Read 2939 times)

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Offline Sqid

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I have been making pizza on a deck oven (572 degrees on top and 660 on stone) using a preferment and been getting fairly good results. 
Recently I changed from bleached/bromated flour to 'nothing added' flour and dont get any thing like the oven spring I used to enjoy.   The previous, bromated flour, had a protein content of 13% and the new flour has over 14%.   I am fiddleing about with the whole process to try to get some spring back.  I make a NY style pizza and used to get some bubbles all the way to the center (12" pizza with 250g of dough).   Now the dough is very dense and chewy.
Is it possible and will it help to condition the flour by adding some abscorbic acid?
Any ideas on this and how much to add will be greatly appreciated, its driving me nuts  >:( and I dont want to revert to the potentially dangerous, bromated flour.


Offline norma427

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2012, 09:04:55 AM »

I have tried some doughs using ascorbic acid and although I didnít have really big noticeable results, these are some of the blends of different ingredients I tried at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.0.html I even asked Tom Lehmann what he thought about trying dough enhancers and here is where I posted about what he replied at Reply 12  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg133358.html#msg133358 Maybe since you changed to a different protein flour, that might be why you noticed the differences in oven spring.  How did your dough feel compared to the dough with the higher protein flour?  You might have to adjust your mixing times or change other things, but different protein flours without bromates can work.  Learning the feel of you dough after mixing and watching how it ferments in experiments can give you experience.  Watching how your dough ferments and when you open your dough balls and there are fermentation bubbles in the skin, that usually means to me that there will be oven spring.  I use KASL flour most of the time, but have tried a range of different protein flours with or without bromates. Different hydrations also can come into play.

I think Peter recommends trying a pinch of ascorbic acid in doughs to see if you can tell any differences.  Also if you are interested you can read about ascorbic acid at the forums Pizza Glossary http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#A

Maybe if you post the formula you are using someone might be able to help you more.

Norma
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Offline franko9752

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2012, 10:23:51 AM »
I just ordered a little PZ44(L-Cystine) for a enhancer experiment. Not sure why though, maybe curious like you Norma. My current mix is AllTrumps high glut flour=100%, Water=58%, IDY=.2%, Salt=1.5%, Oil=1.25%, Sugar=1.2%. Any thoughts Norma? Not really having a problem with this, just courious.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 10:30:59 AM by franko9752 »

Offline franko9752

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2012, 10:28:03 AM »
Also i might bring my hydration lower than 58%, the pz44 should help this. I never have any luck with hydration over 60%.

Offline norma427

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2012, 12:16:57 PM »
I just ordered a little PZ44(L-Cystine) for a enhancer experiment. Not sure why though, maybe curious like you Norma. My current mix is AllTrumps high glut flour=100%, Water=58%, IDY=.2%, Salt=1.5%, Oil=1.25%, Sugar=1.2%. Any thoughts Norma? Not really having a problem with this, just courious.

Frank,

I also am curious about dough enhancers like you are.  ;D I really donít see anything wrong with your current formulation, but I like a little bit more salt for a NY style dough.  Are you making a NY style dough with your formulation?  I really donít know because I havenít experimented with the PZ-44, but would be interested in your results if you dropped your hydration down more. 

I did play with some dough enhancers on this thread. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.0.html  I did use EL-7 and its includes L-Cysteine, which is an ingredient in PZ-44. I want to experiment more, but really donít know what kind of dough to experiment with the PZ-44 I have.  If you look at what Tom Lehmann had to say at PMQTT about PZ-44 http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=54899&sid=79664525888cdd3270bc18ff538ad8bf#p54899 you can see he recommends PZ-44 for low hydration doughs. 

I recently sent some of my PZ-44 and EL-7 to another member so he could do some experiments with them.  I am not good in figuring out what doughs to try them in. 

Norma
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Offline franko9752

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2012, 01:16:53 PM »
Frank,

I also am curious about dough enhancers like you are.  ;D I really donít see anything wrong with your current formulation, but I like a little bit more salt for a NY style dough.  Are you making a NY style dough with your formulation?  I really donít know because I havenít experimented with the PZ-44, but would be interested in your results if you dropped your hydration down more.  

I did play with some dough enhancers on this thread. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.0.html  I did use EL-7 and its includes L-Cysteine, which is an ingredient in PZ-44. I want to experiment more, but really donít know what kind of dough to experiment with the PZ-44 I have.  If you look at what Tom Lehmann had to say at PMQTT about PZ-44 http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=54899&sid=79664525888cdd3270bc18ff538ad8bf#p54899 you can see he recommends PZ-44 for low hydration doughs.  

I recently sent some of my PZ-44 and EL-7 to another member so he could do some experiments with them.  I am not good in figuring out what doughs to try them in.  

Norma
N.Y. style for me Norma. I have been liking my dough at around 58% hydration, going to try 57% this week. Too much higher of hydration seems to make my skins too plyable to work with much, might be better for screens but i cook on deck. What is your reason for more salt in a N.Y. pizza? I like tweeking the formula at times for experimentation and experience but like to keep it simple too. I use AllTrumps High glute. Been using bromated and bleached but got some this time unbleached and unbromated, didn't try it yet but wondering if you see any diff in both? I brought my BakersPride P22BL electric deck counter oven to my local Legion Club and make pizza 3 days a week and loving it.

Offline norma427

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2012, 01:37:03 PM »
Frank,

1% hydration in your NY style dough really shouldnít make a lot of difference, at least in my opinion.  I usually like NY style doughs around 60-61% but everyone has their own opinions on hydration also.  It just might be my tasted buds, but I like a NY style dough with about 1.75-1.80% salt.  Everyone has their own opinions on that also.  Recently I tried 1.90% salt and did like that too. 

I think each person has to experiment to know what they like in terms of a NY style pizza.  I have through many iterations and still am not sure what I like the best.   :-D

Norma
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Offline franko9752

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 02:01:31 PM »
Frank,

1% hydration in your NY style dough really shouldnít make a lot of difference, at least in my opinion.  I usually like NY style doughs around 60-61% but everyone has their own opinions on hydration also.  It just might be my tasted buds, but I like a NY style dough with about 1.75-1.80% salt.  Everyone has their own opinions on that also.  Recently I tried 1.90% salt and did like that too. 

I think each person has to experiment to know what they like in terms of a NY style pizza.  I have through many iterations and still am not sure what I like the best.   :-D

Norma
I COMPLETLY understand and agree, don;t know what i like best either ???

Offline Sqid

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 09:33:30 PM »
Hi Frank and Norma, thanks for your quick replies.
My formula is as follows:

Flour               2000g                       100%              
Water             1350                           67%
Preferment       500  (300 flour, 200 water)
Salt                     35                          1.5%
EVOO                  25                          1.1%
I mix 2/3 of the flour with thw water and preferment and autolyse for 20 mins.
Add other ingredients and mix about 8 mins.
Rest 20 mins
Turn onto counter and rest 10 mins
Ball and rest 30 mins before putting in fridge overnight.

I have tried everything, hydration, mixing times, proofing times but whatever I do, I can't get much oven spring.  If I mix along time then I can develope the gluten into a 'rubber ball' consistency but it still doesn't help in the oven.   I can only conclude that I am developing the wrong type of gluten!? ???
I'm a relative newbie to all this but I specifically I want a conditioner to replace the lost bromate and therefore think abscorbicc acid would be the logical choice.  How much should I put into the mix?  From your links I would figure about 1/2 ts,  does that sound about right?

Also Frank, I'll be interested to hear how the unbromated All Trumps works out
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 09:37:27 PM by Sqid »

Offline norma427

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 10:05:56 PM »
I also use a preferment for the Lehmann dough with KASL (which in not bromated).  If you look through some of the pictures on my thread you can see I donít have problems with oven spring, or at least donít think I do. I only make my dough in 5, 10, or 15 lb. batches though.  This is just one link to some of the pizzas I made with a preferment and KASL at Reply 1142 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg171249.html#msg171249  I have loads of pictures scattered though that thread of mixing the dough with my Hobart, balling, or many other things if you are interested.  I did mix that same dough at home with my Kitchen Aid different times.

I am not that good at just looking at formulas, and knowing how they will turn out, but maybe another member might be able to help you, especially when using a preferment.

Norma
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Offline Sqid

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 02:59:48 AM »
Actually I know that you have been using a preferment recently and BTW your pizzas look very good.  I haven't been able to track down your recipe, maybe you can give me a link to that.  
The difference between bromated and not, has been very large for me.  I was able to get 'crunch' from the cornicione to the center because the dough had rissen.   Now its flat and dense with a very little rise even on thge cornicione.   Its almost as if the yeast has fizzled out before it got started - is this possible with the change of flour OR that the glutens are not holding the air.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 03:05:29 AM by Sqid »

Offline norma427

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 08:19:46 AM »
Sqid,

Did you ever try the nonbromated flour you have now in a regular NY style dough without the preferment to see what would happen?  The reason I am asking, is to just see if you experimented with other styles or maybe something like the Reinhart doughs to give you oven spring using your new flour.  Reinhart doughs are a little more on the American style with a higher hydration though in my opinion.  I am sure not an expert in diagnosing your problems with your flour, but maybe if you tried a regular Lehmann dough with about the same hydration you are using now, it might help you to understand if it is the flour that is causing your pizzas not having oven spring.

At Reply 225 is where Peter set-forth the formulation for 1 pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226  If you want to look at the formulation for five dough balls it is at Reply 149  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687   The preferment Lehmann dough is really calculated for a 3 day cold ferment of the preferment, then the final mix and balling and finally a one day cold ferment.  I have mixed the preferment one day and then let it rise and made the final dough then, but havenít done a lot of experiments with the last method.

It canít hurt either for you to try some ascorbic acid in your final dough.  I think it would be about 1/16 of a teaspoon.

Norma
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Offline franko9752

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 09:55:51 AM »
I thought that i read somewhere that ascorbic acid is put in the flour at factory to replace Bromate?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 12:51:41 PM by franko9752 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 10:37:13 AM »
I thought that i read somewhere that abscorbic acid is put in the flour at factory to replace Bromate?

That is correct. See, for example, the specs for the General Mills Superlative (West) flour at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/SUPERLATIVE%20(WEST)%20BL%20AA%20ENR%20MT.pdf. I believe that the flour is designated West for California where bromates are forbidden and subject to strict notice requirements. Note also that, when used, ascorbic acid is used in parts per million (e.g., 30-40ppm).

Peter

Offline Sqid

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 10:56:31 AM »
I've not tried the nonbromated without the preferment but I have added IDY to the mix to give it some help!  I added about 0.2% and it certainly helps but I miss the simplicity and rise that I was achieving previously.
I am going to try some ascorbic acid - now that you've used the word in your post I realise I spelt it wrong in the title  :-[
Thanks for the suggestions on amount to use.  1/16th of a teaspoon seems to be on the high side compared to the link supplied by Peter (50ppm would equate to about 0.1g for my mix) but I don't suppose extra can do any harm.  What do you think?

Offline norma427

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 12:14:45 PM »
Sqid,

In the post at Reply 47 these are the directions Peter gave me for using ascorbic acid.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg134491.html#msg134491

I am not sure of your preferment dough, but do add yeast in the preferment and final dough for the preferment Lehmann dough. 

Norma
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Offline Sqid

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2012, 06:38:26 AM »
Yesterday I added ascorbic acid to my mix.   I cut up a 500mg vit c tablet and put in about 1/5 to a total flour content of 2300g.   I had done some more googling and it seems that too much ascorbic acid can have a detrimental affect on the dough.
This morning I was keen to test the results after an overnight refrigerated fermentation.   The dough was very pliable and wouldn't streatch evenly - with very little provocation it ripped.  Disasterous!  As far as I could tell there was also no improvement in oven spring.
I'm determined not to go back to bromated flour but it seems that i have to learn the whole process again.
I think I should maybe start another thread asking for general and any help with my dough.
As for adding IDY, I have done that and the dough has definately risen more but still the oven spring was minimal.
Thanks for your time.

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 07:38:47 PM »
Sqid, who are you serving pizza to?  Mice or people?  Bromate is dangerous for mice (in massive quantities), but there's no proof it's a danger to people.

If you really care about what you eat, you should really be avoiding the known carcinogens:

black pepper
tea
coffee
cocoa
cinnamin
nutmeg
deep fried foods
grilled foods
charred food
nitrosamines (browned pepperoni/crisp bacon)

These are proven carcinogens, although, for most, it takes a massive dose to do damage. You'd probably have to live on black pepper to get cancer from it.  But these are all confirmed carcinogens in humans, unlike bromate.

The idea that ascorbic acid will give you bromate-like effects is a myth. The only thing that will give you bromate like effects is bromate. You can make good pizza without it, but it's a hundred times more difficult.  Do the research on bromate and get the facts. Once you see how harmless it really is (in the quantities found in pizza), you can go back to using it and making your life so much easier.

buceriasdon

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2012, 07:46:54 PM »
+1

Sqid, who are you serving pizza to?  Mice or people?  Bromate is dangerous for mice (in massive quantities), but there's no proof it's a danger to people.

If you really care about what you eat, you should really be avoiding the known carcinogens:

black pepper
tea
coffee
cocoa
cinnamin
nutmeg
deep fried foods
grilled foods
charred food
nitrosamines (browned pepperoni/crisp bacon)

These are proven carcinogens, although, for most, it takes a massive dose to do damage. You'd probably have to live on black pepper to get cancer from it.  But these are all confirmed carcinogens in humans, unlike bromate.

The idea that ascorbic acid will give you bromate-like effects is a myth. The only thing that will give you bromate like effects is bromate. You can make good pizza without it, but it's a hundred times more difficult.  Do the research on bromate and get the facts. Once you see how harmless it really is (in the quantities found in pizza), you can go back to using it and making your life so much easier.


Offline Sqid

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2012, 01:24:35 AM »
Haven't been here for some time and am happy to see you Scott Buc.
I know this bromate thing is a personal crusade of yours but its a personal decision I've taken, not to mention its use as a marketing tool!   I've found your posts to be very informative and hope that our different stances on KBrO3 won't prevent you from giving me some other words of wisdom... please.
I read some other thread on here about problems with flour by some chap in India.   I think my situation is similar being based in Burma.   I get the flour milled to avoid additives and it hasn't had any time to oxidise.   Its really green!
I'm trying to find ways to improve it without going back to bromate (risks to kitchen workers who inhale uncooked flour have also not been studied).   I am trying to aeriate the dough more by using higher mixing speeds in the pre autolyse stage. 
Is it that oxidising the dough just allows the gluten to develop better and if this is the case then why can't it be substituted with more vigorous or longer kneeding.   I'm trying to get a handle on what is happening so that I have an idea of what direction I should be going in.
I also understand that gliadin and glutenin impart different properties.   So even though my flour is 14% protein it may not be good??  Its a bit of a mute point as I have a choice of one for non bromated!!
Thanks for your thoughts
Sqid


 

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