Author Topic: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?  (Read 2952 times)

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scott123

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2012, 06:56:08 PM »
Sqid, it's one thing to go from bromated flour to an unbromated version of the same flour, but choosing a locally milled flour (with all the variables it entails) over bromated- well, that borders on masochism  ;D

There's nothing special about inhaling bromated flour vs. unbromated flour.  Inhaling flour, any flour, is not a good idea, and if you really do care about your workers, you'll have them wear filtration masks when making dough.

There's only two ways to make freshly milled flour viable.  Bromate or time.  There are no mixing workarounds to help a green flour.  If bromate is out of the question, then you need to find a cool dry place to store the flour- for around a month. Burma doesn't strike me the coolest or driest of places, but hopefully you can find an air conditioned space for storage.

I'm well aware of my pro-bromate agenda, but, at the same time, I've consulted with a few pizzerias that chose to use unbromated flour and was able to help them get good results. I'll be happy to help you with whatever flour you use, but, with freshly milled flour, there are no silver bullets.


Offline Sqid

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 09:22:45 PM »
Thanks for the repy Scott.  I agree that it seems a bit extreem but in the contex of things I think its the right thing to do.   The flour is from the same supplier and although they are one of the 2 largest in Burma, I'm not convinced that their regular flours are all that consistent either!   To add to the variables, I'm using a wild yeast preferment.  Go figure.   The thing is, it tastes wonderful -just sometimes doesn't look it- and when it does go right I get spring right through to the middle of the pizza which is onlly a couple of milss thick.
The main problem with storing flour here isn't rancid oil but flour mites which appear after 2 weeks if the flour container is not sealed.  The supplier has agreed to store the flour for a week as I'm a fairly regular buyer -I know its not much, but better than nothing.  If I put the flour in a sealed container, would it help with the oxidising process if I shake it up every couple of days?
They have also agreed to look into the possibilities of ascorbic acid for me but the last week have done nothing about that yet as the factory manager has not been at work.  His wife's just had a baby!   Children are so inconsiderate :-D

scott123

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2012, 11:02:28 PM »
Sqid, do you have the freezer space to freeze the flour?  If you freeze it long enough, that will kill the flour mites.

I don't think shaking up the sealed container will make any difference.

In my experience, sealed containers make very little difference for flour mites.  The eggs are almost always in the flour when you get it and, given enough time, sealed container or not, they will hatch.

If a sealed container does, indeed, buy you 4 weeks and you can store it that long, you're in luck.  If, on the other hand, you're stuck with 1 or 2 weeks of storage, that's still, imo, going to be a problem.

Imo, if there was ever a get out of jail free card for using bromate, it would be living in a country where flour can't be naturally aged properly. I'm just saying.

Offline Sqid

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2012, 10:28:37 PM »
No freezer space, I'm afraid.  I have a very small shop, about 35m of which only about 15m is kitchen space.   More like a hobby than a business atm but we live in hope!  For posterity's sake; how long would the little buggers have to be frozen before they are killed off?
I'm going to try sealed containers if I can find something suitable.   They seem to work fairly well for keeping the mites at bay when storing rice.  At the shop I've only seen them in the semolina we use to put on the peel.  We now keep that in a sealed container which seems to have done the trick.  The problem I foresee is storage space.   We are presently using less than 1/2 a bag per week but expect it to get better.   Maybe I can get them to store it at the factory if I provide the containersor at my home.
Sometimes, everyday  :-\ I think I could be forgiven for almost anything because I live here  :-D.   I enjoy a challenge and a good pizza.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Offline Sqid

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2012, 11:21:27 PM »
Temperature needed to kill mites (at least the North American variety lol)
http://www.ciart.it/Biblioteca/MICROWAVE/THERMA.pdf

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2012, 08:52:17 AM »
Temperature needed to kill mites (at least the North American variety lol)
http://www.ciart.it/Biblioteca/MICROWAVE/THERMA.pdf

Sqid,

I'm not sure what kind of bugs you might have in your flour but Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking recommends freezing the flour for 45 days, even for small bags. See Replies 3-5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17806.msg172763/topicseen.html#msg172763.

Peter

Offline Sqid

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Re: Abscorbic acid instead of potasium bromate to strengthen gluten?
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2012, 08:38:40 PM »
Thanks for that Peter.  I imagine, that amount of time, is to completely detaminate the flour giving you almost unlimited shelf life.   Quite an extreme step to take as my aim (atm) is to give it a shelf life of about 1 month with the purpose of oxidising it.

Tom also seems to suggest that lower temperatures will reduce the oxidisation:

 "Flour does change during storage, it oxidizes, meaning that it gets stronger. This may not be a good thing as it can result in excessive dough memory/snap-back during the forming operation. For this reason, we suggest storing the flour in the fridge if at all possible."

So... I think I will try to find an alternative method of keeping the bugs at bay!   The post did provide me with some important information.  One: that the container need not be airtight.   Two: the life cycle of the critters  My wife bought an airtight container yesterday but could only find one with a screw top mouth which is really too small for easy access.   Now I can buy a suitable container easily which will most likely be completely ineffective  :-D