Author Topic: How does my crumb look?  (Read 11926 times)

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Offline TimEggers

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2005, 01:46:12 PM »
Despite my sticky dough problem I would have to call this dough a complete success!  The flavor was remarkable (goes to show that less is really more, this is the crust I have been after, a darn good eatin' pizza pie!).  The texture and crumb were also very nice (in my ignorant opinion).  Take a look:

First the pie itself then the crumb...

YUM!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2005, 02:51:18 PM »
Tim,

I'd say you aced it. Congratulations on a job well done. The crumb is beeyooteeful ;D.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 02:53:11 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TimEggers

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2005, 03:09:09 PM »
:D Thank you very much Peter!† I am going to keep this recipe now and begin practice to replicate these results.† The pizza as I said was delicious and the crumb outstanding.† I only hope I can do it again!

I'll keep sharing my future results with all who are interested!

Thanks again, EVERYONE!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2005, 07:10:09 PM »
Tim,

I missed one of your earlier posts in which you asked whether a reduction in knead time was responsible for the dough being stickier than when a longer knead time was used. Unless there were other differences between the two doughs, I would say that the shorter knead time would produce a stickier dough because there is less absorption of the water by the flour and the dough as a result of there being less overall physical interaction between the two ingredients. This would be especially true if you start out with a high hydration ratio to begin with, as you did. If you had let the dough knead longer, it would have gotten drier. The danger at some point would be one of overkneading, which not be the best thing if you are looking for a light and airy crumb. If that's the objective, then underkneading is preferable to overkneading. Using the mixing/kneading method I described earlier, you should be able to make adjustments to the dough without getting into overkneaded territory. Using low mixer speeds also helps in this regard.

Peter

Offline TimEggers

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2005, 01:06:14 AM »
Peter,

The big difference was that the first dough was kneaded on setting 4 for 13 minutes where as the second dough was kneaded on setting 2 for 8 minutes.† That's a drastic difference!

Perhaps I will try a longer knead on the slower setting.† The dough I kneaded fast and long turned out great (the first pic on this thread) so a longer (say 13 minutes) on a slower speed should not be problem?† Correct?

Also do I understand you correctly when I say that higher hydrated dough has less chance of over kneading than drier dough or in other words a wetter dough will be more forgiving?

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 01:09:58 AM by TimEggers »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2005, 10:33:44 AM »
Tim,

If is difficult to generalize on these matters since home stand mixers are subject to too many variables--in terms of their design, number and types of speed settings, power ratings, and the ways in which different people use their machines in the desire to produce doughs that will have many of the qualities of commercially produced doughs.

All stand mixers will transmit energy to a ball of dough through a dough hook or equivalent mechanism, but the amount of energy and its effect on the dough will depend not only on the machine's basic design (planetary, spiral, etc.) but on such factors as the size of the mixer bowl, the amount of dough (i.e., the dough batch size) in relation to the specific mixer bowl, the mixing/kneading speed(s), and the total (cumulative) mixing/kneading time. Whether a dough has a high hydration ratio or a low hydration ratio will also be a factor, and all other things being equal, a high hydration dough should be easier to knead than one with a low hydration ratio simply because a high hydration dough offers less resistance to kneading. Most manufacturers of commercial mixers understand this well and will even warn users that doughs having an absorption ratio (AR) of less than 50% should not be kneaded at certain speeds or that the dough batch sizes be halved. They also specify that dough batch sizes be reduced (by 10%) when high-gluten flours are used.

Whether a high hydration dough will be more prone to overkneading will most likely be dictated by the machine-specific factors mentioned above. For example, when I practiced Randy's recipe for American style dough, I reduced the total knead time considerably from what was called for in Randy's recipe because my dough ball size was much smaller. Had I used the total specified knead time, my dough would have become overkneaded independent of its hydration ratio. That's the reason why I don't overly rely on knead speeds and times but rather on the condition of the dough I am trying to achieve. When I mention specific speeds and times in recipes, they are in relation to my specific case (dough ball size and machine speed settings) and their sole purpose is to keep people in the ballpark and, hopefully, not result in an underkneaded or overkneaded dough. Also, most people have been conditioned by the way recipes are written to expect this kind of information.

You are correct that there is a correlation between the speed setting and knead time. In a theoretical, frictionless world, the energy imparted to a specified quantity of dough kneaded at, say, speed 1 for 20 minutes, will be the same as the energy imparted to a like dough kneaded at speed 2 for 10 minutes (assuming that speed 1 is half that of speed 2). But this notion is meaningless out of context. It has meaning only when put into context with all the other factors mentioned above. The best way to tell how your machine will behave under different circumstances, including different hydration ratios, is to do test runs in a controlled environment, and see what results are achieved. You might discover, to your surprise, that there is little difference.

Peter

« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 10:55:57 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline TimEggers

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2005, 12:41:49 PM »
Peter,

AH I see!† So let me ask a very loaded question: how do I tell when dough is perfectly kneaded?† I know you said that will take experience but what should I be looking for exactly?† What are signs of under or over kneading?† I know that a tight regular shaped crumb is often a sign of over kneading, what else should I be looking for?† I can make dough until I am blue in the face but I am not sure what I am looking for other than how the finished crumb and crust are.† Are those the only factors?

Thanks again!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2005, 02:44:18 PM »
Tim,

Looking at your crumb structures, I don't think you need much help from me or anyone else.

Nonetheless, this is one of those cases where it is far easier to show someone than to describe the matter using words. However, one simple test you can use is called the windowpane, or gluten window, test. It's been so long since I have used it, that I completely forgot about it. But I think it is a good test until you get to the point where you no longer need to rely on it. It’s also a good crosscheck on the condition of your dough.

To perform the test, once all the dough ingredients, including the oil if you use it, have been kneaded together and the dough starts to take on a smooth, kneaded appearance, you take a piece of dough about the size of a walnut and flatten it in all directions so that is basically a thin disk. You then stretch it outwardly in all directions by gently pulling the dough outwardly toward the perimeter, grasping as much of the dough at the perimeter as you can so that the dough stretches in all directions. If the dough has been properly kneaded, you should be able to see light through it and there should be no tears in the dough as you stretch it out.

If there are tears in the dough, that is usually a sign that more kneading is needed. If it's also wet and sticky, you will most likely also need more flour. If you want to see an example of the latter condition, take a look at Reply # 21 and Reply # 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1698.20.html. You continue the kneading (adding more flour if necessary) and repeat the test until the dough passes the windowpane test. Sometimes I do the additional kneading by hand because I like the control that hand kneading provides over the kneading process. I think my hands also do a better job of kneading than my machine. For an example of a properly developed gluten window, you may want to take a look at http://www.redstaryeast.com/baking/lessons_twoc.html.

What I have discovered is that when the dough can pass the windowpane test, it will usually have all the desired characteristics you want in the dough--at least the ones I look for. The dough should be smooth and elastic (some recipe writers also use the term "shiny" but that's not always my experience) without any tears on the outer surface when you squeeze the dough to put the outer skin under tension. I prefer that the dough be a bit tacky, but not sticky or wet. That's a threshold test, and it is not fatal if the dough otherwise feels smooth and elastic and doesn't have any tears in the outer surface.

You may want to also keep in mind that not all doughs are amenable to the windowpane test. Weak flours that are low in protein and gluten, like some 00 flours, and whole-wheat doughs or doughs including cornmeal, do not do well with the test. It is best for white glutinous flours, like all-purpose and above.

Since I don't intentionally allow my doughs to get to overknead territory, I don't have many signposts to give you at the dough level other than to say that the dough is likely to get tough, rubbery and dry the longer you knead it. If the dough is allowed to go beyond overkneading, the gluten network will be severely damaged. If the temperature of the dough gets above about 140 degrees F, the yeast will die and the dough will become putty-like and lifeless--and will be completely unusable.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 11:53:01 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2005, 02:50:51 PM »
Not to throw a wrench into the works, but I think there is another factor at work, one I am still trying to net out. In addition to hydration and kneading time/speed, there is also the order in which the ingredients are mixed. I've found that dumping all of the ingredients at one time into the mixture will produce a different result than if you stagger them. Following Marco's method, somewhat, I start with 100% of the water, salt, and starter, but only about 25% of the flour. Only after all of the initial ingredients are thoroughly combined do I gradually start adding the remaining flour. For whatever reason, I end up kneading the dough less time with this technique and get a lighter result. Still experimenting.

Bill/SFNM

Offline TimEggers

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2005, 11:47:22 PM »
Hello Bill!† Peter actually has recommend to me a similar practice (perhaps he did so in a private message and not here) and I have been meaning to try it.

My questions with that is timing the knead time.† For example if someone wants a total 8 minutes knead time would the-add-as-you-go method dictate adding the very last dough at the 8 minute mark?† If that is so how does that last bit of flour absorb anything?† I would think that a more even absorption would be had with a faster addition of ingredients then a time of kneading to incorporate all the ingredients into each other.† There is probably a happy middle ground between the two.† Again what benefit can really be had?

Peter it's like you said above with my crumb and flavor I am hard pressed to change too much.† I am wanting to try a slightly less hydrated dough so it's more tacky instead of sticky.† Oh well the finished pizza crust is darn good so what if I have to hassle with a sticky dough.† Well see...


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2005, 12:06:54 AM »
Tim,

When I gradually add the flour mixture to the water mixture and stir them together, I consider that as part of the mixing stage, as contrasted with the formal kneading process. That "mixing" stage only takes a few minutes. Then the oil is added and kneaded in, for about a minute or so for my machine and typical dough batch size. The rest of the time is devoted to the more serious kneading, which can take anywhere from 6-8 minutes for the doughs I make. Other than adding flour and/or water during that time to adjust the hydration of the dough, there is no addition of anything else during that time. I suspect Bill's procedure is similar but perhaps without the oil since he specializes in Neapolitan style doughs which typically don't include oil. He also uses a natural preferment, which may also alter his staging of ingredients somewhat.

Peter

Offline TimEggers

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2005, 02:10:48 PM »
Hi guys!† Here is my latest procedure for dough making.† I took notes and here is all the information.† As you will notice I did slightly reduce the hydration ratio, it's now closer to Randy's American Recipe amount.† The dough after the 8-minute knead time was tacky to the touch but not sticky at all, much easier to work with.† I also hope that the dough will not have quite as much extensibility.† Before with the high hydration level the dough was almost impossible to pick up and keep it at a thickness I like (I like a medium thick-thick crust of about 1/4 to 1/2 inch).† I also hope that I able to maintain my crumb.† I guess I'll find out tomorrow!

What do you think?

------------------------

Timís Pizza Recipe

16 oz Pillsbury Bread Machine Flour (sifted)
274g Water (hot tap, 125F)
1 tsp Cane sugar
1/2 TBSP Clover Honey
1 TBSP Garlic Infused Bertolli Extra Virgin Olive Oil
1 tsp Salt
1 TBSP Fleischmannís Rapid Rise Yeast

Tools:
Kitchen Aid Mixer with dough hook
Mixing Bowl
Whisk
Crisco EVOO Cooking Spray

Put all the dry ingredients in a bowl (NOT mixer bowl) and whisk to combine.

Pour the hot water into mixer bowl.

Slowly add dry mixture to the water with mixer and dough hook set on stir or 2 setting until dough comes together (1-3 minutes).

Then go to setting 2 to knead.† At 4 minutes add the garlic infused EVOO and the honey.† Knead for 4 more minutes.

After 8 minutes (total time) stop kneading.† Lightly dust the dough just enough to handle the dough (it will be tacky but should not be sticky) and roll it into a tight ball on a lightly flour dusted counter top.

Store dough in a coated glass or metal bowl with EVOO spray.† Coat dough with EVOO spray and wrap with plastic wrap for overnight up to three days in refrigerator.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2005, 03:03:58 PM »
Tim,

This is what your latest recipe looks like from a baker's percent perspective:

100%, Flour
60.4%, Water (hot tap, 125 degrees F)
0.89%, Cane Sugar
2.3%, Honey
3.1%, Oil (EVOO)
1.23%, Salt
2%, Fleischmann's Rapid-Rise yeast
Total dough weight (calculated) = 27.17 oz.

I don't see anything in the formulation that looks out of order. However, if you continue to experience extensive stretchiness of the dough, you may want to consider using a lower water temperature. You also have some room to give on the salt, so it can be increased if you wish, especially if you detect an insufficiency from a taste standpoint. Using a high water temperature will cause the dough to ferment faster. I estimate that your finished dough temperature was possibly around 90 degrees F. At that level, the rate of fermentation will increase by about a third. A higher level of salt, if you choose to use it, will also slow down the fermentation rate somewhat. Reducing the amount of yeast will have a similar effect. You may recall that Randy's American style dough has good balance between extensibility and elasticity. I surmise that that is so because the level of sugar/honey (above 5%) and the level of salt (above 2%) collectively act to slow down the rate of fermentation of the dough. Since you have gone below these levels recently, and since you are still using hot water and a fair amount of yeast, I think you can expect an increase in the fermentation rate and a more extensible dough. So, my first choice would be to reduce the water temperature. This would be consistent with what is done in a commercial setting where it is important from a dough management standpoint that the dough balls not expand much while under refrigeration.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 04, 2005, 03:09:20 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TimEggers

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2005, 04:56:52 PM »
Thank you Peter for the great feedback.† You have foreseen my next problem and that is a very fast fermentation even in the fridge.† My dough does only last about two and one half days.† On that third day the dough really smells fermented and the dough has a sour flavor.† I do need to address the rapid fermentation issue and perhaps will try to add a little salt.† I think I may double the salt from 1 tsp to 2 tsp that should double my percent to 2.46 correct?† What affect will that have on the yeast's performance?† I understand from what I have read that anything over 3% begins to impede the yeasts performance however adding more yeast can compensate for that.† I would also like to get a little more flavor enhancement.† Then again with as much yeast that I am using I don't see 2.46% salt being a problem do you?

I hesitate to alter the water temp simply because now I use the hottest water I can get from the tap faucet.† Currently that is a consistent 125F, which is very warm I know, but it's a variable that I can hold at one level every time (within a few degrees).† If I begin to lower the temp I'll have to be sure to gets its temperature each time or start warming cold water in my coffee kettle.† But with such a small amount of water I have a difficult time getting an accurate reading in my kettle.

Perhaps I could draw the hot water and let it sit in the mixer bowl until it cools.† Also I should note that I measure the hot water from the tap then pour it into a cool metal mixer bowl.† I am sure I loose 5-7 degrees instantly there.† I'll have to experiment and see what my actual start water temps are, true I start with 125F water but by the time it hits the cool metal bowl, I get the bowl on the mixer and actually begin to add the dry ingredients the water does have time too cool.† In effect I don't know what temp my water is exactly when I begin the dough "building" process.

A more scientific approach would make this easier for me I know, but I am looking to keep things as simple and basic as I can while still being able to reproduce results.† If this fails I'll break out the high tech toys and really get into it!† Man either way I am having a blast!† Three weeks of pizza EVERYDAY!† Just the way I like it...

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2005, 07:48:26 PM »
Following Marco's method, somewhat, I start with 100% of the water, salt, and starter, but only about 25% of the flour. Only after all of the initial ingredients are thoroughly combined do I gradually start adding the remaining flour. For whatever reason, I end up kneading the dough less time with this technique and get a lighter result. Still experimenting.

Bill/SFNM

By doing so, you oxidate the flour, which in turn  the dough more strong and make the flour absorb more water. Up to the point that the dough has some consistency and start being solid like, there is actually no gluten formation happening, thus the initial flour adding stage, should not be counted as kneading time.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2005, 11:45:54 PM »
I start with 100% of the water, salt, and starter, but only about 25% of the flour. Only after all of the initial ingredients are thoroughly combined do I gradually start adding the remaining flour.

Oops. I meant to say I start with 75% of the flour.

Bill/SFNM

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2005, 10:55:50 AM »
Tim,

It is possible to use both salt and sugar (as well as the amount of yeast) as mechanisms for controlling the rate and degree of fermentation. However, in my experience, neither salt nor sugar is as effective as using temperature adjusted water. Also, decreasing water temperature as I earlier suggested does not affect the taste or flavor of a crust as will salt and sugar.

It isn't necessary to use water temperature at, say, 125 degrees F., notwithstanding instructions on yeast packets (and I assume on the packet or bottle of your Fleischmann's Rapid-Rise yeast) to use liquid temperatures between 120-130 degrees F. Doing so may increase the likelihood of success by most home bakers, but the yeast will tolerate lower temperatures as are more commonly used by professional bakers. I don't know the prevailing temperatures where you are in Illinois, but I believe you can safely use water right out of the "cold" faucet. Right now where I am in Texas, that is around 78 degrees F. I personally use bottled water and temperature adjust it to achieve what is considered the optimum fermentation temperature for yeasted doughs (around 80 degrees F) and also for reasons of taste and to avoid or minimize chemicals like chlorine in the dough.

You should feel free to experiment with all the factors that control fermentation. That puts you in control of the process, and at some point you will hit upon the optimum combination for your purposes. Whether doubling the amount of salt as you propose will achieve that result will only be known for sure at such time as you actually try it. If it doesn't work or isn't effective enough, you can always try one of the other approaches.

As you experiment, you may also find it useful to look at this thread, where I discussed some of the topics covered above in this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1596.0.html. For a further discussion of salt and its retarding effects on yeast you may want to take a look at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html.

Peter

« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:29:47 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TimEggers

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2005, 12:43:31 PM »
Peter,

Once again you offer up some very good food for thought!† I was using hot from tap water to simply maintain a consistent variable (water temp) it just so happens the water turns out to be 125F.† I haven't actually read the packets or my bottle of yeast.† I will simply try cooler water.† Cold water from my faucet is a very cool 56F, too cold for dough I am sure.† I just set out a container of water with my analog thermometer to see that temp the water will be at when it hits room temperature.† I am going to leave the other factors alone for now and try room temperature water dough.† Our house is usually around 75F.† I also have a Brita Water pitcher and will start using water from that.† It is better than our tap water however there is nothing wrong (taste wise) with our tap water.

More experimenting to do...

P.S.- I ordered some KASL and SAF Instant yeast last night!† So excited can't wait!† I feel the "next level" coming!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 12:47:47 PM by TimEggers »

Offline TimEggers

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2005, 08:45:36 PM »
Well I am at it again.† Here it is another dough experiment.† You'll notice that I used a cooler water temperature and a slightly higher hydration level.† The dough of the previous batch was far too difficult to stretch in my opinion.† I could not get it to pull out to the thickness I like without tearing so I went with a higher hydration level to offset that.† The dough was still tacky and I guess I will see tomorrow just how much extensibility it really has.† Hopefully more than it had the last time but not quite as much as it had at 63.8% hydration (290g of H2O).

Take a look:
__________

Timís Pizza Recipe v3.0

Ingredients:
(Amount) (Name) (Bakerís Percent)
16oz (454g) Pillsbury Bread Machine Flour, sifted (100%)
286g Water (room temperature tap, approx. 75F) (62.9%)
1 tsp Cane sugar (0.89%)
1/2 TBSP Clover Honey (2.3%)
1 TBSP Garlic Infused Bertolli Extra Virgin Olive Oil (3.1%)
1 tsp Salt (1.23%)
1 TBSP Fleischmannís Rapid Rise Yeast (2%)

Tools:
Kitchen Aid Mixer with dough hook
Mixing Bowl
Bowl
Whisk
Timer
Crisco EVOO Cooking Spray

Put all the dry ingredients in a bowl (NOT mixer bowl) and whisk to combine.

Pour the water into mixer bowl and add honey, stir to dissolve.

Start timer then slowly add dry mixture to the water with mixer and dough hook set on stir or 2 setting until dough comes together (about 2 minutes).

Then go to setting 2 to knead.† At 4 minutes add the garlic infused EVOO.† Knead at setting 4 just to bring the dough back together into one piece (about 10 seconds).† Resume kneading on speed 2 until timer reads 8 minutes.

After 8 minutes (total time) stop kneading.† Gently feel the dough, it should be tacky but should not be sticky to where it pulls away on your fingers.

Lightly dust a counter top with flour then roll dough into ball.† Let rest while you clean the mixer bowl and wipe dry.† Mist mixer bowl with EVOO spray and put dough ball into mixer bowl.† Lightly mist dough ball with EVOO spray and cover with plastic wrap (I then cover that with aluminum foil simply because the foil can be pinched against the bowlís lip to form a tighter seal).

Offline TimEggers

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Re: How does my crumb look?
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2005, 10:25:57 PM »
The above dough was good but still lacked extensibility.† So I have decided to go up to a higher hydration level (back to 290g).† Here is a step in a completely new direction:

-------------------
Timís Pizza Recipe v4.0

Ingredients:
(Amount) (Name) (Bakerís Percent-THANKS PETER!)

Dry Ingredients:
16oz (454g) Pillsbury Bread Machine Flour, sifted (100%)
1 TBSP Fleischmannís Rapid Rise Yeast (2%)
1 tsp Brown sugar (0.88%)
1 tsp Cane sugar (0.89%)
2 tsp Salt (2.46%)
   
Wet Ingredients:
268g Water (room temperature tap, approx. 75F) (59%)
22g Melted Butter/Margarine (4.85%)
1/2 TBSP Clover Honey (2.3%)
1 TBSP Garlic Infused Bertolli Extra Virgin Olive Oil (3.1%)


Tools:
Kitchen Aid Mixer with dough hook
Bowl
Whisk
Crisco EVOO Cooking Spray

Procedure:
Mix all dry ingredients in bowl (NOT mixer bowl) and whisk to combine.

Put water, melted butter/magarine and honey into mixer bowl then stir to combine.

Turn mixer on to setting 2, start timer and begin to slowly add dry ingredient mixture.† This should take 1-2 minutes.

At 3 minutes add the garlic infused extra virgin olive oil.† †

Knead until timer reads 8 to 9 minutes.

Turn dough out onto a lightly flour dusted counter and roll into a ball.† Clean mixer bowl and towel dry.† Lightly mist mixer bowl with EVOO cooking spray, add dough ball, then mist dough ball.† Cover with plastic wrap (then aluminum foil if you wish) then chill in refrigerator.
--------------------

My first observations of the dough above are that it took an additional minute before the dough displayed a soft, elastic surface appearance.† Also the dough ball is very heavy and flattens itself out when sitting on the counter.† The dough also even with the added melted butter and total amount of wet ingredients at 290g was tacky without being sticky.† I can't wait to bake it tomorrow!

Stay tuned for finished results tomorrow!



« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 11:01:22 PM by TimEggers »


 

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