How does my crumb look?

[TimEggers]

Here is a picture of my crumb structure.  How does it look?  Is this something close to the loose airy crumb I keep reading about?

[Pete-zza]

Tim,

It looks superb  . Was it for a pizza crust, as it appears to be? If so, please tell us how you did it.

Peter

[scott r]

I'll second that, great looking crust.

[paul260426]

Tim...do tell!

[TimEggers]

Thank you guys for the very kind words!  It really means a lot as I consider myself a total newbie to the homemade pizza thing.

The recipe I posted in another thread but it is this:

16 oz Pillsbury Bread Machine Flour (all I have for now)
268g Water (hot tap)
2 TBSP Cane sugar
1 TBSP Clover Honey
1 TBSP Garlic Infused Bertolli Extra Virgin Olive Oil (sliced garlic cloves in oil for 24 hours+)
2 tsp Garlic Salt
1.5 TBSP Fleischmann’s Rapid Rise Yeast (all I have for now)
1/2 tsp Garlic Powder


I bloom the yeast in hot tap water (no idea what the temp is, yeah I'm lazy...) and all the sugar.  I then weigh out all the flour and combine all the other dry ingredients to the flour in the mixer bowl.  I then take a whisk and just combine all the dry ingredients in the mixer bowl.  After the yeast has finished blooming I add that to the dry ingredients in the mixer bowl.  Then I add the oil and honey.

Then using the dough hook on my Kitchen Aid mixer I set the speed to 4 and knead for thirteen minutes.  The ingredients above made for a dough that was too dry to come together.  So I added a TBSP of water but then that was way too wet so I added a pinch of flour.  Then the dough came together.  I am going to re-measure my water with say and extra 1/2 TBSP and try that.  The dough should come together on it's own without having to add too much of anything.  Like I said the dough was way too dry.  I assume it's due to my addition of garlic powder and no compensation with additional water.  The recipe did not have garlic powder in it before and that is when I was using 268g of water.

The dough likes to stick to the very bottom of the bowl but I resisted the urge to add more flour.  Instead I let it knead and to my amazement the dough as it kneaded slowly lifted up off the bowl.  After four minutes the dough was not sticking to the bowl anymore.  I kept going simply because I have read that 12-15 minutes is the usual time for mixer kneading.

However I wonder if I should stop kneading as soon as the dough pulls itself off the bowl.  Does the flour absorbing the water on a molecular level cause that?  It seems as if the dough "dries" as it kneads.

I posted some more questions in another topic, which read:

Moisture vs. Rise

I have been making wetter and heavier dough and have been noticing that it doesn't rise as much as it did in the oven.  It comes out a hand tossed thickness instead of puffing up to a thick crust.  That's not bad in my opinion however how can I get the dough to rise more in the oven like it did before I added more water?

The dough balls after kneading are sticky and sometimes stick to my fingers.  I lightly dust the dough ball and cut it into two halves.  I then raise the two halves separately in the fridge for 12-48 hours.  I have also used more yeast by 50% per my recipe.  I have not added more sugar.  The recipe I am working on now is this:

16 oz Pillsbury Bread Machine Flour (all I have for now)
268g Water (hot tap)
2 TBSP Cane sugar
1 TBSP Clover Honey
1 TBSP Garlic Infused Bertolli Extra Virgin Olive Oil (sliced garlic cloves in oil for 24 hours+)
2 tsp Garlic Salt
1.5 TBSP Fleischmann’s Rapid Rise Yeast (all I have for now)
1/2 tsp Garlic Powder

I bloom the yeast in the sugar water for 10 minutes prior to adding it to the dry ingredients.  I knead on setting 4 in my kitchen aid mixer for about 13 minutes.  I am going to experiment with stopping the kneading as soon as the dough pulls off the bottom of the mixer bowl into one mass (rather than having some dough stuck to the very bottom of the mixer bowl).

I have no clue what all my percents are and all that hi-tech stuff I am just going by how the dough looks and feels and finally tastes when cooked.  The dough ball feels like heavy soft bubble gum.  Smooth with a heavy softness to it.  The dough ball also when sitting on the counter is so heavy (from water weight?) that the top flattens out a little bit.

So is it too heavy to rise like it did when it was drier?  Should I try more yeast?
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I'll delete that thread so the discussion can occur here.  Again thank you for the wonderful feedback.  These forums and your input is an invaluable resource in my learning!

[TimEggers]

For the benefit of other readers I have included some information sent to me from Pete-zza (Peter) in response to my recipe (I hope you don't mind Peter, I edited it for the most relevant content in interests of saving space).  Thanks again Peter!


---------
Tim,

I took a look at your recipe that was posted today but when I went back to find it again I saw that it was no longer there (or at least I couldn't find it). It doesn't really matter because I had written down your recipe to convert it to baker's percents so that I could better analyze it. First, unless my math is incorrect, here is your recipe by baker's percents:

100%, Flour
59%, Water (hot tap)
5.3%, Sugar
7.9%, Honey
3.1%, Oil
1.8%, Garlic salt
4.98%, Fleischmann's Rapid-Rise yeast
0.44%, Garlic powder

My first observation is that your recipe does not have as high a hydration as your comments originally suggested. It's in range, but far from being too high. The second observation is that the totality of sugar (cane and honey) is very high. Conventional theory says that when the sugar gets above 5% (by weight of flour), it will impair the yeast performance by sucking fluids out of the yeast cell walls by osmosis. At above 4% or so, the sugar will also be detectable on the palate. The total sugar in your recipe logs in at over 13%, hence there is the potential of causing significant degradation of yeast performance.  The third observation is that the amount of yeast in your recipe is excessive. You could use one tenth of that. However, if you did that without changing anything else in the recipe, you most likely would have a disaster dough on your hands, because the sugar would severely impair the performance of the diminished amount of yeast. I have concluded that the reason this recipe works is that although there may be significant impairment of the yeast performance, there is still enough yeast left to carry on its normal functions.

If I had to guess, I would say that whatever you sense may be wrong with your dough (the way it feels, behaves in the oven, etc.) is attributable to the excesses mentioned above. You can safely lower the amount of total sugar to below 5% and the yeast to around 1% (or even less) and still get good results. In fact, I demonstrated this with some of my recent experiments with "thin" American style pizzas using Randy's basic recipe as a starting point.

A few other thoughts and tips. First, there is no need to proof the Fleischmann's Rapid-Rise yeast (or any similar yeast like an IDY yeast). The Rapid-Rise yeast is designed to be combined with the dry ingredients in a dough recipe. Proofing it doesn't cause harm, and some bakers proof it to speed up its action, but it isn't necessary. I also wouldn't put all the sugar in the water along with the yeast. I would either add the sugar to the dry ingredients or I would dissolve the sugar (and the honey) in the water without the yeast. I would also keep the oil out of the water since it can impair the absorption of the water by the flour mixture. BTW, with the amount of oil your recipe uses, around 3%, you should get good extensibility (stretchiness) in the dough (the oil coats the gluten strands) and a reasonable amount of softness in the crumb (the sugar and honey also contribute a lot to the softness of the crumb, as well as increasing the shelf life of the crust--which is rarely an issue for a pizza that is usually eaten completely after it comes out of the oven).

I think your kneading speed and knead time are also too high, if your KitchenAid stand mixer is anything like mine. The first part of the kneading process where the water mixture and flour mixture are initially combined should take only a few minutes at the stir speed. Adding the oil and kneading that into the dough can take another minute or two at speed 2. The rest of the knead can take place for about another 8 minutes or so at speed 2, with maybe a minute at speed 3 for your dough batch size. The above times and speeds are exemplary only; I use the look and feel of the dough as the final determinant, not times or mixer speeds per se.

Once you get your pizza screen, I think that should help.

Peter

[TimEggers]

Peter,

I tried this version of my recipe:

16 oz Pillsbury Bread Machine Flour
290g Water (hot tap)
2 TBSP Cane sugar
1 TBSP Garlic Infused Bertolli Extra Virgin Olive Oil
2 tsp Garlic Salt
1 TBSP Fleischmann’s Rapid Rise Yeast
1 TBSP Garlic Powder

I put all the flour into the mixer bowl.  I then added the sugar, dry yeast, garlic salt and garlic powder.  I then added the water and began kneading on stir for 2:30 minutes until the dough came together then went to speed setting 2.

Then at 4 minutes I realized that I had forgotten the garlic EVOO!  I added that then continued to knead on setting 2.  The dough (to my ignorant amazement) was absorbed by the oil in a few minutes and I was back in action.  Perhaps this was a "happy" accident?

But anyway I wanted to let the mixer go until the contact patch (the dough that sticks to the bottom of the mixer bowl) lifted clean from the bowl.  After ten minutes it hadn't so out of curiosity I went to speed 4.  The contact patch lifted in 30 seconds so I stopped the kneading there.  I know you recommended 8 minutes but I was curious to see how long it took for the CP to lift off the bowl.  I didn't want to go longer than 10 knowing that you recommended 8.

I then poured the dough out onto a lightly dusted counter top and shaped into a ball.  I cut the dough in half then reshaped them into balls and added each to their own oiled bowl (Crisco 100% EVOO cooking spray).  Then lightly coated/sprayed the dough balls and covered with plastic wrap.  Then straight to the fridge!

I can't wait to try it tomorrow!  The dough was very wet (there I go again) and sticky like wet bubble gum.  However the light dusting of flour made the dough easy to handle and I avoided incorporating too much flour into the dough.  The dough also had a wonderful garlic aroma.  I am not looking for an overly garlic crust, just an added flavor to my crust.  My crusts thus far have not had a strong garlic flavor but rather have been a very tasty "pizza doughy" flavor.  One could look at all the garlic ingredients I use but really the crust does not come out that strong at all after the rising and baking.

I hope others will try my recipe and offer their results; I'd love to hear them.  Also Peter what are my numbers with this one?  Is this more like technically sound pizza dough in respect to percent?  I am terrible with math...

Thanks again to all you guys, this is so much darn fun!  Happy Eating!

P.S.—If you look at the time I post this you’ll see that it’s 2 in the morning for me.  Yes I do stay up this late making dough or sauce almost every other day.  I am that much into it!  I’ve had a pizza everyday for three weeks and no I wouldn’t want it any other way!

[piroshok]

Nothing wrong with that pie TimEggers
I like improvisations
congrats mate

[Pete-zza]

Tim,

In my own pizza making, I try not to take on too many "experiments" with a single dough at one time. I usually do this in my haste to get answers to things that nag me. Invariably, I end up with a product that may be better or worse than prior efforts but I have no way of knowing what was responsible for the new results. So, I have had to train myself to try one, or two at most, experiments at one time.

To give you an example, I might not start by adding garlic powder to the dough. I will try to do all the proper things (ingredient-wise and technique-wise) to get a dough that I really like before deciding to improvise. That's when I might try adding garlic salt or garlic powder or other ingredient to the dough to see what happens. As it so happens, I have not tried adding garlic salt or powder to a dough. Or dried herbs, or grated Parmesan cheese, or anything like that. One of our members, either a current or former pizza operator (or an employee of one), once said that such ingredients should be placed in the sauce rather than in the dough, apparently because he felt that they would have some negative effects on the dough. I might also add that some garlic salts and powders contain chemical additives that may not be the best thing to have in doughs. I have never gotten around to testing our fellow member's thesis, so I'm happy that you are conducting the experiment for us and look forward to your results, especially in light of the fact that you have increased the amount of garlic powder in your recipe from 0.44% to 2.6%, which is a big leap.

The baker's percents for the new version of your recipe shake out as follows:

100%, Flour
63.9%, Water
5.3%, Sugar
3.1%, Oil
1.8%, Garlic salt
2%, Fleischmann's Rapid-Rise yeast
2.6%, Garlic powder

What jumps out at me this time is that your hydration has increased by almost 5%. I think that is why your dough was as wet or sticky as you indicated. However, I think you should be OK. With time in the refrigerator, the dough will continue to absorb the water. It will also give off a bit in the form of evaporation (which you will notice on the sides of your container or storage bag.) Once you shape the dough on a floured work surface you will also make the dough drier and easier to handle.

Apart from the above observation, your baker's percents all look OK. The amount of yeast may still be on the high side but since your sugar is also fairly high, I think you should be OK. One of the nice things about experimenting and improvising is that you are not locked into them. If you don't like the results with your new dough you can always go back to the old one--or experiment to produce a new one.

Peter

[TimEggers]

Peter,

I am fully aware of the "only change one variable at a time" idea.  I am just impatient!  This dough wasn't any stickier than before.  I was just unaware that dough should be tacky at all let alone sticky like this.  It is still very workable with a light flour dusting and it stretches itself practically.  Very easy to work into a round shape!  Almost impossible to pick it up and put it on the peel it's so lax.  I love it though, a big step in the right direction!

Today’s pizza was so-so.  Too much garlic.  However the dough behaved flawlessly!  Very easy to stretch and raised up real nice in the oven.

I think I need to try a bare bones dough.  A dough with my recipe but without the garlic powder and using salt rather than garlic salt.  Like I said the dough was wonderful to work with, had a great crumb (like above) and performed just right.

I feel I have a great working dough now to get a good flavor.  I guess it's time to get the KASL flour huh?  My dough in my opinion is just lackluster.  Good, but plain.  What can I do to add flavor?  Get better flour?  Different Yeast?

[scott r]

I'm sure peter will jump in here with more detail, but here are the things I would try.

Better flour, to me Caputo has the best flavor, but is hard to deal with for a beginner.  It also seems to really prefer high heat.

Try whatever yeast you are using with a poolish, and or a really long refrigerated rise.  3 days is usually a good place to be for maximum flavor.  Any yeast but a natural starter culture pretty much tastes the same from what I have read.

A starter culture.  These may seem tricky at first, but are really much easier to deal with than you would think.

[Pete-zza]

Tim,

"Tacky" is simply a convention that I use because it sits at the interface between "too wet" and "too dry". For other kinds of doughs, such as deep-dish doughs that can call for a lot of oil, the term may not even apply. In those applications, having the dough wet with oil may be more appropriate. Plus the kneading regimen may be far different than for a NY style or American style dough, and certainly for a cracker-style dough.

From the way you described the dough handling qualities, it sounds like it had more extensibility (stretchiness) than elasticity (springback). A high hydration percent can contribute to this result, as will large amounts of yeast and, especially, using warm or hot water in making the dough. Each 15% increase in finished dough temperature will cause the rate of fermentation to double. You didn't indicate how long the dough was in the refrigerator, but if it was really stretchy after an overnight rise or less than, say, 18 hours, then you might want to consider adjusting the above variables next time to reduce the extensibility of the dough. I would start by using cooler water. It would be ideal if you can get a useful dough life for your dough of about 2 to 3 days (under refrigeration).

Did you detect the sweetness in the crust due to the high levels of sugar? As between sugar and honey in your recipe, I personally prefer at least some honey. I can't explain it, but the honey seems to help the handling and management of the dough, and contributes color to the finished crust and, to a lesser degree, to the crumb. I know that folks such as Papa John's and Domino's don't use honey in their doughs (I suspect it would be too cumbersome to use in a commercial setting and also too expensive compared with ordinary sugar), but one of the advantages of making a dough in a home setting is that you can do anything you want. And most likely end up with a better product than PJ's and Domino's produce.

You should get a bit more flavor, chewiness and crispiness and a bit more crust color if you go to a high-gluten flour simply because it has more protein and yields more gluten. It will also tolerate a higher hydration, although I think the amount of water used in your most recent formulation should be OK as it is. I don't think you will get more flavor in the crust by using a different yeast. If I had some fresh yeast on hand I would probably use it on the chance that it might provide better crust flavor but I wouldn't go out looking for it just for that reason.

scott's ideas and suggestions are good ones if you want to go in a different direction with your doughs. I don't think the Caputo dough will work well for the American style that your dough seems to mirror most. But for a Neapolitan style dough, the Caputo 00 flour is about the best flour there is and has a nice flavor profile--distinctly different from KASL and other similar flours. As part of your pizza making graduate studies, going to a preferment (starter) would add another dimension to the classic Neapolitan style dough.

Peter

[TimEggers]

My goal in dough is to get a crust that is medium thickness, dough that is easy to work, crust that has a nice crumb and darn good flavor.

I am going to try to a simpler version of my recipe.  I may try to reduce the sugar a little farther and add a little bit of honey for the qualities you mention Peter.  I am going to omit the garlic ingredients (except the garlic infused EVOO because that's the only oil I have on hand for now).

I really think it's time for me to get back to basics.  To start from the ground up so to speak.  Now the last dough I made had what I would consider perfect physical performance characteristics.  The flavor was just too much due to all the garlic powder.


I am learning a lot from you guys and from the sheer amount of practice, thanks again!

[TimEggers]

Here is my latest attempt, please dissect it guys!

Here we go...

Tim’s Pizza Recipe

16 oz Pillsbury Bread Machine Flour (sifted)
290g Water (hot tap)
1 tsp Cane sugar
1/2 TBSP Clover Honey
1 TBSP Garlic Infused Bertolli Extra Virgin Olive Oil
1 tsp Salt
1 TBSP Fleischmann’s Rapid Rise Yeast

Tools:
Kitchen Aid Mixer with dough hook
2 pizza stones
Pizza peel
Crisco EVOO Cooking Spray

Put all the dry ingredients (except salt) in mixer bowl, whisk to combine.

Mix salt into the hot water and pour into bowl.

Add honey then set mixer using bread hook on stir setting until dough comes together (1-2 minutes). 

Then go to setting 2 to knead.  At 3 minutes add the garlic infused EVOO.  Knead for 5 more minutes.

After 8 minutes (total knead time) stop kneading.  Lightly dust the dough just enough to handle the dough (it will be sticky) and roll it into a tight ball on a flour dusted counter top.

Store dough in a coated glass bowl with EVOO spray.  Coat dough with EVOO spray and wrap with plastic wrap for overnight up to three days in refrigerator.

Prepare oven and 2 pizza stones (use two racks set one above the other, place a pizza stone on each rack so that when the pizza sits on top of the lower stone the upper stone sits above the pizza) preheat to 425 deg F (double check actual oven temps with oven thermometer) for at least 40 minutes.  Dust pizza peel with plain unflavored bread crumbs so pizza slides off of peel) lay crust on peel then coat with EVOO and top pizza with what you want.  Jerk peel so pizza is free moving, if pizza sticks carefully lift pizza and add more breadcrumbs.  The pizza needs to slide off the peel easily! Cook pizza for 12-14 minutes directly on the bottom pizza stone itself (no pan) or until the very outer edge starts to turn to a golden brown (DO NOT OVERCOOK, that will ruin the pizza in my opinion).  Remove pizza and the stone it cooked on from oven and place on cold stove burners or hot pads and let rest for two minutes.  Slice and enjoy!

Pizza Sauce
3 10 3/4-ounce can of tomato puree
3-TBSP sugar
1 tsp salt
1 tsp ground oregano
1/2-tsp basil
1/2-tsp ground thyme
1/2-tsp garlic powder
3/4-cup water
1- TBSP garlic infused extra virgin olive oil

1. Combine ingredients in a small saucepan over medium heat. Bring to a boil.  Reduce heat and simmer for 15 to 20 minutes.  Makes slightly over one 26-ounce jar.

[Pete-zza]

Tim,

I don't see anything about your recipe that looks out of order. The true test will be the results you achieve and your final taste test.

One technique you might consider from the mixing/kneading standpoint is one that has basically become my starndard technique for most pizza doughs (e.g., NY and American style). It is the following: Put all of the liquid ingredients except for the oil into the mixer bowl and, using the stir speed, gradually add the dry ingredients (combined in another bowl). You may need to use a spatula or scraper to push the flour mixture from the sides of the bowl in the direction of the dough hook.

After all of the flour mixture has been put into the mixer bowl, check to see if the dough is coming together in the form of a ball (it may be rough at this point). If not, add a bit more of the liquid, but still reserving a bit--and keeping in mind that the oil has yet to be added. Then add the oil and knead that in (e.g., at speed 2). If, after that step, the dough still looks a bit dry, add the remaining reserved liquid a bit at a time, or until the dough comes together into a smooth and cohesive ball (you will be at speed 2 or 3 at this point). If you overshoot the mark and add too much liquid and the dough becomes a bit wet again, it's no disaster. Just sprinkle a bit more flour over the dough in the bowl and continue the kneading until the dough looks just right. I usually finish with about 30 seconds to a minute of hand kneading to shape the dough into whatever shape I want to go into the refrigerator (e.g., round to go into a bowl or like container or in a disk to go into a storage bag or shallow cookie tin)

I think the above mixing/kneading technique does a good job of hydrating the flour and also provides a measure of control over the process. The technique may even allow you to incorporate a bit more water into the dough, and possibly get an even better crumb structure, which you have indicated to be one of your objectives.

If you'd like, you can modify the process in several ways. For example, you can put all the wet ingredients except for the oil into the mixer bowl, and dissolve the salt and sugar in the liquids. Or you can put the salt and sugar in with the flour and IDY (some operators even create little premeasured packets of salt, sugar and yeast). These are techniques used by professional pizza operators but since their mixers are significantly different and better at kneading than what we use in our homes, you will have to experiment to see what works best in your own mixer.

Peter

[TimEggers]

Peter once again you present  some points with some very practical logic to them.  My wife is baking a pie now so I'll have to wait to make my pizza.  I am looking forward to it!  Thanks again Peter!

[Pete-zza]

Tim,

I'll be interested also in seeing what results you get from using a lower oven/stone temperature and a longer bake. Usually that will produce a crispier crust (helped by the high hydration ratio), and maybe a chewier crust. Some photos would be nice if you can manage it.

Peter

[TimEggers]

Peter,

The pizza crumb pic above came from such a cooking environment!  I call it dumb luck...

Also I noticed last night when working the dough after the 8 minute knead it was very sticky.  It stuck to my fingers, stuck to the bowl and the counter.  Is that too wet?  I had to dust quite a bit more than previous attempts to get it manageable.  Is this normal?

Thanks again!

[Pete-zza]

Tim,

I would say no, that it is not normal--for a properly prepared dough, that is. I think you will find that the procedure I described earlier will cure that kind of problem. And it's better to solve the problem at that stage rather than on the board when you are ready to shape the dough into a skin since too much fresh flour on the outer surface of the dough can result in a slightly bitter taste once it bakes. If you stick your fingers in the dough once it comes out of the bowl and the dough sticks when you try to pull your fingers out, and you find yourself having to struggle to scrape the dough off of your fingers, the dough needs more flour. My advice is to add a very little at a time, and knead it in. Often you will find, much to your surprise, that the dough loses its stickiness as you knead it, sometimes without even adding any additional flour or just the most minor amount. Once you have worked your way through such an experience once, the next time it will go easier. It's part of the learning curve that we all go through.

Peter

[TimEggers]

Peter that is interesting because all I did was reduce the total amount of knead time.  Was the dough sticky because the flour didn't have as much time to absorb the water?  I wonder why it changed so much on me?  I guess I'll have to practice, pratice, practice!