Vito and Nick's clone - Take 1

[mjl]

Operation pizza commencing today!

First attempt at the Vito and Nick style pizza. Disclaimer, I have never eaten and V&N, but I do prefer a crackery style pizza  crust and have to start somewhere. This morning, I put together Pete-zzza's V&N clone. as exactly as I could without a food scale that reads in tenths of grams.  I can already see the need for an upgraded food scale.

Couple of quick questions.
1. I punched the dough down around the 6hr mark per the recipe.  How often should I expect to have to punch it down? Can this type of dough be punched too much/too little?

2. The recipe calls for a 24 hr rise period. In my haste to start my pizza journey, I made it at 10am this morning. At 10am tomorrow, can I just ball it up, put  in the refrig, and remove about 4 hrs prior to dinner time? Any thoughts?

I have scoured the Chicago style pizza sticky, but being a total newb, I will likely need some direction.
At about this time tomorrow, I hope to have some pictures and first impressions of my maiden attempt.

Thanks again.
Matt

[CDNpielover]

I think my best piece of advice would be to read this entire thread and take notes along the way: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.0.html

(maybe you already did that?).  I know many others have made this formulation (including me) and many do fairly thorough write-ups.  I don't recall my punching down/rising details, but I bet I posted them in that thread!   

[northsider]

punch it down!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ob1tLx5wiM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ob1tLx5wiM</a>

[mjl]

Belated follow up.

All and all, pizza came out tasty and was well received.  I ended up punching the dough 2x, after that, it didn't really seem to rise much. That limited rise surprised me some, but since I am still learning, I didn't really know what to expect.  The outer 1/3 of the pizza was what I was expecting, crispy and cracker-ish. The center of the pizza was thin, cooked through, but very pliable and chewy. It wasn't bad, but wasn't what I was expecting. Do you think it is possible I overworked the dough, or maybe overloaded with toppings?  Moving forward, I will also cook the pizza at 500 instead of 450, thinking that may have contributed to the issue as well.  Either way, a good first start. Looking forward to doing some more reading, and practicing.

Matt

[jeffereynelson]

I don't ever punch dough down two time, for bread or pizza, but please make sure and take pics. That makes everything so much easier.

[CDNpielover]

I agree, pics are absolutely necessary 

[mjl]

 Silly me. I have been going to food forums long enough to know, no pics......never happened.  I  think we snapped some phone pics, I will try to get them posted.

Matt

Pics added.  Round 2 this weekend. Better pics, better pizza, better process to be expected

[mjl]

Round 2.

Starting with Pete-zza's formula for a 12" pie x 3. These are my numbers, rounding  in some cases due to the limitations of my measuring devices.

558g flour (Robin Hood All Purpose)
186g water
1.5 tsp ady
1 tsp salt
3.75 tsp oil
6 tbsp + 3/4 tsp of 2% milk

-Bloom ADY and salt for 5 mins in 100f water.
-Add 1/2 flour and all remaining ingredients into Kitchen-Aid, mixing on 4 for 5 mins, while slowly adding remaining flour.

Bit of a surprise. The dough never really seemed to "pull" together. It mixed, but didn't really form into the smooth knot on the end of the bread hook like other attempts.  I removed the dough from the mixer, and did kind of a hand knead to incorporate the stragglers in the bottom of the mixing bowl. The dough seemed to get a bit more supple as I worked it for a total of a 4 minutes or so. At this point, the dough felt fairly cohesive, but still sort of  coarse and dry to the touch. Wary of over-kneading the dough, it is currently in a oiled bowl in the over, with the oven light on, and covered with a towel. Moving forward, we will see, but I guess I was expecting a more supple dough.

Stay tuned.

Matt

[BTB]

-Bloom ADY and salt for 5 mins in 100f water.

Matt, that may not an adviseable practice.  Tom Lehmann and others had advised elsewheres on this and other websites against mixing and blooming ADY and salt together as it can adversely affect the yeast.  FWIW.
                                                                              --BTB

[David Deas]

Doesn't make a difference. 

Unless his recipe has too much salt to begin with, it ain't worth worrying about.  He's not going to kill the yeast with salt.

[BTB]

Doesn't make a difference . . . . it ain't worth worrying about.  He's not going to kill the yeast with salt.

David Deas, why are you so adamant on this? ?   Many have advised to not mix salt and yeast together.  So one doing such "risks" ruining all their day's (maybe multiple days) efforts in pizzamaking.  I just suggest to refrain from adding salt to foaming yeast as it may inhibit it from being effective, which is critical for great pizzmaking.

Per the Dough Doctor: " . . . don't mix the yeast with the salt . . . This is bad for the yeast as (it) will have an inhibiting affect on the yeast in the concentrated solution."  (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,105.msg5388.html#msg5388)

So for those who are not believers, just remember Clint's words after hours and hours of pizzamaking work . . . . . . "do you feel lucky, punk?"  Suggest to refrain from adding salt to the foaming yeast is all I'm saying.

                                                                                                 --BTB

[vcb]

So for those who are not believers, just remember Clint's words after hours and hours of pizzamaking work . . . . . . "do you feel lucky, punk?"  Suggest to refrain from adding salt to the foaming yeast is all I'm saying.

                                                                                                 --BTB

I found this web link
from http://www.reluctantgourmet.com/blog/ask-a-chef/does-salt-kill-yeast/
that I think pretty much sums it up:

"It’s a matter of balance.  Salt does retard yeast growth, and in concentrations that are too high, it can indeed kill the yeast.  In judicious amounts, salt is what brings out the flavor in the bread and controls yeast growth so that the resulting crumb is nice and even."

Think "Sea Water". Early bakers and pizzaiolos in Italy likely used sea water, which already has salt (and other stuff) in it. 
Some yeast must be at least a little bit resistant to salt water, and many of the modern strains of commercial yeast are more resilient.
So, unless you're using water from the Dead Sea, it's probably not going to kill your yeast,
 but depending on your recipe and your kind of yeast, your results may vary.

[Pete-zza]

This subject came up recently in another thread and I gave my opinion, and the reasons therefor, at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18481.msg179744/topicseen.html#msg179744.

It is also common to form "goody bags" that contain yeast, salt, sugar and other ingredients. However, they are in dry form or otherwise protected (like fats and oils).

Peter

[mjl]

http://s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m613/mjlbbq/

Thanks for all the additional input.

Both pizzas turned out pretty well. The dough was surprisingly easy to work with, and rolled out nicely.  The pizza cooked at 500 for 10 mins on a stone. I think somewhere along the way, I am maybe overworking the dough.  For as thin as the crust was, it had a very dense crunch.  The cheese is a 80% Mozz 20% provolone blend. As for whether or not it replicates V and N, that is hard to say. Since Chicago is only a few hours away, a road trip is in order.  Either way it is pretty tasty. Pretty sure I need to continue to work on my dough handling skills, and I had a few process missteps along the way.  Looking back at my notes, I did add the salt with the yeast, which I did not do in round 1.   When I have some time, I will have to look at my round 1 notes.  Thanks for all the advice. Hopefully this weekend will find me back at the drawing board.

Matt

[rcbaughn]

Hey guys, where is the original location for this recipe? I clicked on the one in the List of Chicago Thin formulations and it seems to take me to some random post. I did some digging, but didn't turn anything up really.

[Bigfoot21075]

Hey guys, where is the original location for this recipe? I clicked on the one in the List of Chicago Thin formulations and it seems to take me to some random post. I did some digging, but didn't turn anything up really.

I saw it on Triple D over the weekend and wanted to try it as well....

[norma427]

Cory and Bigfoot21075,


I am not sure, but think you might be looking for Peter’s post at Reply 120 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117150.html#msg117150  You can see in that thread where other members tried the V&N pizza clone.

Norma

[rcbaughn]

Thank you Norma! That is exactly what I was looking for and couldn't find. And Bigfoot, I saw it on Triple D this weekend too and wanted to see what it was all about. I have never made any kind of pie that puts the sauce all the way to the edge so it would be interesting to see the results in a home application.

[CDNpielover]

The Vito and Nick's clone was my favorite until Garvey came along with his formulation.