Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow

[dmcavanagh]

Norma

I wasn't referring to taste, I simply meant that the consistency of the doughs would be very similar. Naturally, the sourdough culture is already full of the sourdough taste while that would not be the case for the soaker dough. I'm just trying to talk you down off the ledge, but I guess you've made your mind up to jump! 

[norma427]

Norma

I wasn't referring to taste, I simply meant that the consistency of the doughs would be very similar. Naturally, the sourdough culture is already full of the sourdough taste while that would not be the case for the soaker dough. I'm just trying to talk you down off the ledge, but I guess you've made your mind up to jump! 

Dave,

I understand now what you are trying to get though my thick head.  I know the taste won’t be like a sourdough crust, but Jim posted about his attempt at Reply 71 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.msg188690.html#msg188690  that he would go as far to say that it was one of the best tasting crusts he ever had.  I don’t know if that was from using different flours or the higher hydration Pizzarium dough, but guess I will find out.  I like sticky doughs to fool around with.   

I appreciate you are trying to talk me off the ledge (and that is what Peter usually does, if I try something that might not work out)  but guess I am ready to jump off that ledge.  You can now be called the second Peter if you want to be called that, if it is okay with Peter. 

Norma

[dmcavanagh]

 Let's just say Pete and I will hold the net and try to catch you when you fall! 

[Pete-zza]

The pH of the soaker taken a few minutes ago and almost 24 hrs. after it was mixed was 6.23.  I sure don’t know what that means, but it also has the sweet taste now.  I don’t know what gives the soaker the sweet taste, instead of a flour and water taste, since no yeast is in the soaker.

Norma,

Jimmy explained the phenomena that he believes are in play to create the sweetness that you detected in the soaker, at Reply 321 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg188776.html#msg188776. To what he said in that post, I would add that before fermentation can take place, you need the enzyme zymase that is present in the cells of yeast. Without that enzyme, and at the proper value of pH, the amylase enzymes can still perform and convert damaged starch to sugars, and especially glucose that the yeast uses along with the zymase enzyme to initiate fermentation. In the absence of yeast and the zymase, all the dough can do is store the sugars that are produced through the action of the amylase enzyme on damaged starch. I believe that you were tasting those sugars. If you are interested, you can read more about these processes at theartisan.net website, under Sugar Transformations (Rosada), at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm#Sugar Transformations.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Let's just say Pete and I will hold the net and try to catch you when you fall! 

Dave,

You mean the net with the big holes in it from Norma's past falls ?

Peter

[dmcavanagh]

When Norma starts an experiment, there's NO WAY anyone is gonna stop her! 

[norma427]

Let's just say Pete and I will hold the net and try to catch you when you fall!  

Dave,

You mean the net with the big holes in it from Norma's past falls ?

Peter

When Norma starts an experiment, there's NO WAY anyone is gonna stop her!  

Dave and Peter,

I will have you both know I did already mixed the final dough and it seems almost exactly like my regular Sicilian dough I have been playing around with.  I will post about it later, but so far it looks and feels good.  

Why waste a started experiment, because I am not following what most members do.  

Thanks Dave that you would catch me if my experiment doesn’t work out!   Peter you sure are no help with the big holes in the net.  

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

Jimmy explained the phenomena that he believes are in play to create the sweetness that you detected in the soaker, at Reply 321 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg188776.html#msg188776. To what he said in that post, I would add that before fermentation can take place, you need the enzyme zymase that is present in the cells of yeast. Without that enzyme, and at the proper value of pH, the amylase enzymes can still perform and convert damaged starch to sugars, and especially glucose that the yeast uses along with the zymase enzyme to initiate fermentation. In the absence of yeast and the zymase, all the dough can do is store the sugars that are produced through the action of the amylase enzyme on damaged starch. I believe that you were tasting those sugars. If you are interested, you can read more about these processes at theartisan.net website, under Sugar Transformations (Rosada), at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm#Sugar Transformations.

Peter

Peter,

I did recall Jim explaining the phenomena that he believes are in play to create the sweetness that are detected in the soakers. 

I didn’t know that before fermentation can take place, the enzyme zymase that is present in yeast cells is needed.  I guess what is happening that the dough is storing sugars that are produced though the action of the amylase enzyme on damaged starch.  Thanks for the additional explanation. 

Norma

[JimmyG]

Norma,
That is kind of odd that the soakers are loosing strength. I don't think we have experienced this yet. Are they breaking down do you think? Are you sure this is not due to the dough being cold rather than at room temp? Biologically there is should not be anything in the mixture to break it down. The enzymes (protease) that break down proteins and gluten are pretty much inactive at the pHs you are reporting and do not begin to show significant activity until they reach a pH around 5.25, and the activity of these protease will increases as the pH drops.

I myself did mix up a batch on friday with a target temp of 115.4F. I, however, did notice that the soakers at this temp did not have as much strength as the soakers that were in the 120s. I am still investigating to try to figure out why we had such strength at the higher temp and not at the lower water temp. I am suspecting that the higher temp was cooking some of the starches, adding to the strength of the dough. But I will have to follow up on this.

Sicilian “epoxy dough” pH numbers
Soaker 6.19
Preferment 5.16

Lehmann “epoxy dough” pH numbers.
Soaker 6.06
Preferment 5.13

Pizzarium “epoxy” dough pH numbers
Soaker 6.12
Preferment 5.16

Thanks for posting your pHs, they are right where they should be. A preferment should be in the low 5s and the soaker in the low 6s, a difference of 1 pH. In a nutshell, what the numbers are telling me is that the preferment, due to the yeast, is able to target certain enzymes in the flour that a soaker is not able to, and vise versa. At the lower pHs, the preferment is able to activate certain enzymes that will break down proteins into amino acids and starch into sugars. Undoubtedly, the yeast is able to contribute its own flavors to the starter and final dough, independent of what is in the flour as well. The soaker is only able to target the enzymes that breakdown starches into sugars, proteins are not able to be denatured (torn apart at these pHs, or at least not to any significant degree). So from what I am reading, the majority of our flavor is from targeting enzymes which are active in the low 6pHs, in addition to the ones that are active in the low 5 pHs. I do think that it is probably the combination of two that is providing that rich flavor that we are tasting in our final crusts.  

Jim

[JimmyG]

Wow, I have never heard of zymase. Going to have to look this one up.

Jim

[Pete-zza]

Wow, I have never heard of zymase. Going to have to look this one up.

Jimmy,

If you look at Figure 3 at the bottom of the page at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm#Sugar Transformations, you will see that all roads lead to Rome. You need zymase and glucose for fermentation.

Peter

[JimmyG]

Man it would be nice if that was true. I could use a Roman vacation. My the only road I have been have been on is home to the lab. 

[norma427]

Jim,

The Pizzarium soaker was much stronger with the different blended flours, than the soakers I am now using with the GM Full Strength flour for this thread and our “epoxy“ thread.  I sure don’t know if the soakers are breaking down and if it is from the soakers being cold rather than at room temperature.  

I wonder since you also mixed up a soaker and used a lower water temperature if that has something to do with the soakers not being as strong.  It seems like I also had almost the same results.  

It is good that the pH numbers are right where they should be.   Thanks for explaining what is happening with the preferments and soakers.  

Glad to hear you think the combination of the two is what is providing the rich flavor that we are both tasting in the final crust.  

I am now almost finished mixing the “epoxy” NY style dough and then will post the final pH numbers of all the final doughs and also the pictures of the processes, after I resize all the pictures.

Thanks for your help!  

Norma

[norma427]

Man it would be nice if that was true. I could use a Roman vacation. My the only road I have been have been on is home to the lab. 

Jim,

Me 2!  About the only places I go to is home to market.   

Norma

[JimmyG]

Peter,
Do you know if zymase goes by a different name b/c it is not in the enzyme database, http://www.brenda-enzymes.info/index.php4 and the only thing I am getting when I do a Google scholar search is either literature from the early 1900s or a review of the history of enzymes  and how the word enzyme got its name (zymase = enzyme) http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=zymase+&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C43?

Jim

[Pete-zza]

Peter,
Do you know if zymase goes by a different name b/c it is not in the enzyme database, http://www.brenda-enzymes.info/index.php4 and the only thing I am getting when I do a Google scholar search is either literature from the early 1900s or a review of the history of enzymes  and how the word enzyme got its name (zymase = enzyme) http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=zymase+&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C43?

Jim

Jim,

I only became aware of zymase from the theartisan.net website, and it stuck with me. Maybe the material at wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zymase can give you some insights on zymase.

Peter

[norma427]

I am posting all the final dough pH numbers on this thread to keep them all in one place.

The final dough pH numbers were:

Pizzarium 5.69
Sicilian 5.65
NY style 5.57

All the above doughs were mixed with the flat beater on the Kitchen Aid mixer first, then the dough hook was used.  For each final dough I did add a little sprinkling of IDY for insurance that the dough will ferment okay until tomorrow. 

The Pizzarium “epoxy” dough was sticky as I thought it would be.  I gave it different stretches and folds and would have like to given it some more, but my time is running short in that I soon have to go to market. 

The Sicilian “epoxy” dough was basically the same as my regular Sicilian dough in how it normally feels.

The NY style “epoxy” dough felt a little bit stickier, but wasn’t bad.

None of the final doughs had any extra flour added.  They all seemed okay and felt about the same as the hydration they should have been.

On another note, my dishwasher is broken now, so there are sure a lot of dishes to do by hand.   

These are the pictures of the Sicilian.  I will post the other pictures of the Pizzarium and NY style on the other threads.

Norma

[cornicione54]

I guess I'm joining this thread pretty late but can someone please summarise for me what has been found in regards to the benefits of using a "soaker", so far? I played around with some soakers (various hydrations) a few years ago when trying to make bread and decided that aside from a slightly sweeter dough I was not getting enough benefit to justify the procedure but I'm sure I wasn't being nearly as thorough as the folks here on this thread.

[dmcavanagh]

cornicione54

I just happened to see your comment so I'll say that I feel the same as you, too much hassle for what you get out of white flour, more useful as a technique for whole grains. Norma and Jimmyg will certainly get you up to speed as soon as they see this. Or, you could do a LOT of reading!

[norma427]

I guess I'm joining this thread pretty late but can someone please summarise for me what has been found in regards to the benefits of using a "soaker", so far? I played around with some soakers (various hydrations) a few years ago when trying to make bread and decided that aside from a slightly sweeter dough I was not getting enough benefit to justify the procedure but I'm sure I wasn't being nearly as thorough as the folks here on this thread.

cornicione54,

 JimmyG, Dave, and I first tried a lower amount of soaker and really that didn’t do much.  We are now working on different pizzas on Jim’s thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.0.html and now both of us are working on Pizzarium style doughs with 10% preferment and with a 50% soaker.  We both think the pies made with the preferment and soaker do give a better taste to the crust.  Why that might be we really don’t know at this point.  I am also working on another “epoxy” dough starting at Reply 312 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg188919.html#msg188919  We really don’t know where these experiments will take us.  So far we have changed the soaker water temperature and lowered it and upped the soaker amount.  The soaker is left to sit out for ˝ hr before cold fermenting.  I have left my soakers cold ferment for 3 days, before incorporating them into the final dough along with the preferment. 

As Dave has posted it is extra work and we really don’t know if using a regular flour will make a lot better pizzas until we try some more experiments.  I think we still are in the tweaking stage and learning stage.  If you need any more links let me know.

Jim might also have more to add.

Norma