Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[JimmyG]

That Sicilian looks to die for Norma and remarkably similar to the one I grew up with on Long Island http://www.patiopizzany.com/apps/photos/. The only exception is that they stripped the grandma but regardless very close. The only suggest I may offer regarding the oven spring is to try and use a fresh tomato sauce. Due to its viscous properties of the cooked sauce,  water may evaporate more out of the fresh sauce during baking offering less weight in those areas. Other than that, great looking pie. I am really jealous I was not there to try it.

[norma427]

That Sicilian looks to die for Norma and remarkably similar to the one I grew up with on Long Island http://www.patiopizzany.com/apps/photos/. The only exception is that they stripped the grandma but regardless very close. The only suggest I may offer regarding the oven spring is to try and use a fresh tomato sauce. Due to its viscous properties, the water may evaporate more out of the fresh sauce during baking offering less weight in those areas. Other than that, great looking pie. I am really jealous I was not there to try it.

Jim,

Thanks for your kind comments!  Thanks also for the link to the pizzeria where you ate pizzas.  They look very good!   

What do you mean by using fresh tomato sauce?  Do you mean I should purchase fresh tomatoes and grind them?  Do you think my TF is right, or do you think it should be lowered?

Norma

[JimmyG]

Norma,
You are more than welcome, that truly looks incredible. What I meant by the "fresh tomato sauce" was to use crushed or whole canned tomatoes that have been pureed and not cooked. I thought you previously mentioned that you use a premade sauce in the previous posts. Regardless, the wetter the sauce, the better the oven spring will be in those areas. Maybe try adding some water to sauce. If nothing else works, make some speed bumps in the dough so the oven spring in the stripped areas looks deliberate  . The TF may be a little too thick but not by much, given your results it is almost trivial. Try bringing it down to 0.13 next time and see if you like the results as much. If not, split the difference, ie .14.

[norma427]

Norma,
You are more than welcome, that truly looks incredible. What I meant by the "fresh tomato sauce" was to use crushed or whole canned tomatoes that have been pureed and not cooked. I thought you previously mentioned that you use a premade sauce in the previous posts. Regardless, the wetter the sauce, the better the oven spring will be in those areas. Maybe try adding some water to sauce. If nothing else works, make some speed bumps in the dough so the oven spring in the stripped areas looks deliberate  . The TF may be a little too thick but not by much, given your results it is almost trivial. Try bringing it down to 0.13 next time and see if you like the results as much. If not, split the difference, ie .14.

Jim,

I understand what you mean by fresh tomato sauce now.  I have some Centro and Classio Tomato products at market and might try them next week.  The sauce I used for this pie was Stanislaus Full Red with added herbs and garlic and some Parmesan cheese.  The sauce wasn’t cooked at all before the pizza was made.  Steve also commented that maybe my sauce was too thick for this type of pizza.  Lol, the idea of speed bumps is funny!  I’ll try dropping the TF down to .14% for next week.

Thanks for your help!   

Norma

[dellavecchia]

Just about perfect Norma. These slices look absolutely delicious - well done.

John

[norma427]

Just about perfect Norma. These slices look absolutely delicious - well done.

John

John,

Thanks!  What would you change either in the formulation or the way to apply the sauce?  Would you also drop the TF some?

Norma

[The Dough Doctor]

Norma;
It is normal for the crust volume/height to be slightly suppressed where you have sauce. This is an old trick that we use when making par-baked crusts to prevent bubbling. Just lightly sauce the dough skin prior to baking and you can reduce the bubbling issue significantly. This is even greater when you have a heavy sauce application as your pictures suggest. Aside from par-baking the crust to some extent prior to dressing it, or using less sauce, what you are getting looks to be pretty normal. I've never seen a deep-dish pizza that was even across the entire diameter, there is always at least some loss of volume/height just under the sauce. This is one reason why a lot of the big box pizza stores use such a light application of sauce on their deep-dish pizzas. My expression for this is to say that those pizzas were blessed by the Italian sauce man.
Good lookin' pizza!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[norma427]

Norma;
It is normal for the crust volume/height to be slightly suppressed where you have sauce. This is an old trick that we use when making par-baked crusts to prevent bubbling. Just lightly sauce the dough skin prior to baking and you can reduce the bubbling issue significantly. This is even greater when you have a heavy sauce application as your pictures suggest. Aside from par-baking the crust to some extent prior to dressing it, or using less sauce, what you are getting looks to be pretty normal. I've never seen a deep-dish pizza that was even across the entire diameter, there is always at least some loss of volume/height just under the sauce. This is one reason why a lot of the big box pizza stores use such a light application of sauce on their deep-dish pizzas. My expression for this is to say that those pizzas were blessed by the Italian sauce man.
Good lookin' pizza!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks for telling me it is normal for the crust volume/height to be slightly be suppressed where the sauce is applied.  I did sauce the pie heavily.  Do you think it would be better to par-bake first?  I was just trying to get rid of one step.    Interesting to hear that there is always at least some loss of volume/height just under the sauce. 

Nice phrase, “blessed by the Italian sauce man”.  I like your phrase! 

Quite a nice compliment coming from the dough doctor about the pizza. 

Norma

[dellavecchia]

John,

Thanks!  What would you change either in the formulation or the way to apply the sauce?  Would you also drop the TF some?

Norma

Norma - I recently solved this issue of the sauce weighing down the pie in the center, and fixed it with mixing and some strength from acidity (it was a starter-based dough). The dough was highly hydrated, and the flour I used was KABF. The TF was high as well:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17983.msg175877.html#msg175877

John

[norma427]

Norma - I recently solved this issue of the sauce weighing down the pie in the center, and fixed it with mixing and some strength from acidity (it was a starter-based dough). The dough was highly hydrated, and the flour I used was KABF. The TF was high as well:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17983.msg175877.html#msg175877

John

John,

Thanks so much for posting a link to what your method was of mixing strength into the flour.  I might try mixing with a flat beater first for the next attempt, then change to the dough hook.  That seemed to give me more strength in some of the Reinhart higher hydration doughs I had tried before.   Your L&B Hybrid looks delicious!   

Norma

[The Dough Doctor]

Norma;
We make one where we par-bake the dough until it is just set, then remove it from the oven and dress the crust, then put it back into the oven to finish baking. It is an extra step, but it does result in a finished crust that is essentially as flat as a board across the entire diameter. As a side benefit, it seems to dry the crust out a little more than baking it all at one time, resulting in a crispier finished pizza. If nothing else works for you , you might give this a try.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[norma427]

Norma;
We make one where we par-bake the dough until it is just set, then remove it from the oven and dress the crust, then put it back into the oven to finish baking. It is an extra step, but it does result in a finished crust that is essentially as flat as a board across the entire diameter. As a side benefit, it seems to dry the crust out a little more than baking it all at one time, resulting in a crispier finished pizza. If nothing else works for you , you might give this a try.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks for the tips about the par-bake until the dough is just set.  I like the crispier finished pizza, but does it still retain the moistness in the crumb?  I want to retain the moistness and light texture in the crumb.  I have tried par-bake with some Sicilian doughs before and really didn’t think my results were that good, but maybe I wasn’t using the right formulation.

Norma

[The Dough Doctor]

Norma;
There are two aspects to using a par-baked crust and getting what you are looking for. The first is to par-bake and then IMMEDIATELY dress the crust and place it back into the oven. The second, and equally as important is not to overbake the crust during the par-baking stage. Some will say that the par-baked crust shouldn't have any color on it at all, while I'm a little more generous and say that it can be tinged with a little light brown, especially on the bottom.
Good luck,
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[norma427]

Norma;
There are two aspects to using a par-baked crust and getting what you are looking for. The first is to par-bake and then IMMEDIATELY dress the crust and place it back into the oven. The second, and equally as important is not to overbake the crust during the par-baking stage. Some will say that the par-baked crust shouldn't have any color on it at all, while I'm a little more generous and say that it can be tinged with a little light brown, especially on the bottom.
Good luck,
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks so much for telling me about the two aspects using a par-baked crust in what I would like to achieve.  I might try a par-bake this coming Tuesday. 

Thanks also for the good luck!

Norma

[norma427]

I went to start another batch of Sicilian dough today and got all the ingredients out and here I didn’t have enough of the Better for Bread flour by about 50 grams.  I didn’t feel like going to the supermarket just for flour, so I substituted the Better for Bread flour with the Ceresota all purpose flour.  At least after this attempt with the Ceresota all purpose flour I will know how a lower protein flour performs in the same formulation.  I did use the flat beater on my Kitchen Aid Mixer first to mix all of the ingredients, then switched over to the dough hook and mixed on speed 1 for 9 minutes.  The dough felt about the same as my last attempt. 

Norma

[norma427]

Pictures of the dough ball top and bottom this morning.

Norma