Author Topic: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow  (Read 42452 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1175
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2012, 08:02:03 AM »
Norma;
It is normal for the crust volume/height to be slightly suppressed where you have sauce. This is an old trick that we use when making par-baked crusts to prevent bubbling. Just lightly sauce the dough skin prior to baking and you can reduce the bubbling issue significantly. This is even greater when you have a heavy sauce application as your pictures suggest. Aside from par-baking the crust to some extent prior to dressing it, or using less sauce, what you are getting looks to be pretty normal. I've never seen a deep-dish pizza that was even across the entire diameter, there is always at least some loss of volume/height just under the sauce. This is one reason why a lot of the big box pizza stores use such a light application of sauce on their deep-dish pizzas. My expression for this is to say that those pizzas were blessed by the Italian sauce man.
Good lookin' pizza!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2012, 08:55:20 AM »
Norma;
It is normal for the crust volume/height to be slightly suppressed where you have sauce. This is an old trick that we use when making par-baked crusts to prevent bubbling. Just lightly sauce the dough skin prior to baking and you can reduce the bubbling issue significantly. This is even greater when you have a heavy sauce application as your pictures suggest. Aside from par-baking the crust to some extent prior to dressing it, or using less sauce, what you are getting looks to be pretty normal. I've never seen a deep-dish pizza that was even across the entire diameter, there is always at least some loss of volume/height just under the sauce. This is one reason why a lot of the big box pizza stores use such a light application of sauce on their deep-dish pizzas. My expression for this is to say that those pizzas were blessed by the Italian sauce man.
Good lookin' pizza!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Tom,

Thanks for telling me it is normal for the crust volume/height to be slightly be suppressed where the sauce is applied.  I did sauce the pie heavily.  Do you think it would be better to par-bake first?  I was just trying to get rid of one step.  :-D  Interesting to hear that there is always at least some loss of volume/height just under the sauce. 

Nice phrase, “blessed by the Italian sauce man”.  I like your phrase!  :)

Quite a nice compliment coming from the dough doctor about the pizza.  :)

Norma

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2012, 12:22:00 PM »
John,

Thanks!  What would you change either in the formulation or the way to apply the sauce?  Would you also drop the TF some?

Norma

Norma - I recently solved this issue of the sauce weighing down the pie in the center, and fixed it with mixing and some strength from acidity (it was a starter-based dough). The dough was highly hydrated, and the flour I used was KABF. The TF was high as well:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17983.msg175877.html#msg175877

John

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2012, 02:00:05 PM »
Norma - I recently solved this issue of the sauce weighing down the pie in the center, and fixed it with mixing and some strength from acidity (it was a starter-based dough). The dough was highly hydrated, and the flour I used was KABF. The TF was high as well:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17983.msg175877.html#msg175877

John

John,

Thanks so much for posting a link to what your method was of mixing strength into the flour.  :) I might try mixing with a flat beater first for the next attempt, then change to the dough hook.  That seemed to give me more strength in some of the Reinhart higher hydration doughs I had tried before.   Your L&B Hybrid looks delicious!   :chef:

Norma

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1175
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2012, 02:32:15 PM »
Norma;
We make one where we par-bake the dough until it is just set, then remove it from the oven and dress the crust, then put it back into the oven to finish baking. It is an extra step, but it does result in a finished crust that is essentially as flat as a board across the entire diameter. As a side benefit, it seems to dry the crust out a little more than baking it all at one time, resulting in a crispier finished pizza. If nothing else works for you , you might give this a try.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2012, 03:19:21 PM »
Norma;
We make one where we par-bake the dough until it is just set, then remove it from the oven and dress the crust, then put it back into the oven to finish baking. It is an extra step, but it does result in a finished crust that is essentially as flat as a board across the entire diameter. As a side benefit, it seems to dry the crust out a little more than baking it all at one time, resulting in a crispier finished pizza. If nothing else works for you , you might give this a try.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks for the tips about the par-bake until the dough is just set.  :) I like the crispier finished pizza, but does it still retain the moistness in the crumb?  I want to retain the moistness and light texture in the crumb.  I have tried par-bake with some Sicilian doughs before and really didn’t think my results were that good, but maybe I wasn’t using the right formulation.

Norma

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1175
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #56 on: March 30, 2012, 07:44:28 AM »
Norma;
There are two aspects to using a par-baked crust and getting what you are looking for. The first is to par-bake and then IMMEDIATELY dress the crust and place it back into the oven. The second, and equally as important is not to overbake the crust during the par-baking stage. Some will say that the par-baked crust shouldn't have any color on it at all, while I'm a little more generous and say that it can be tinged with a little light brown, especially on the bottom.
Good luck,
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #57 on: March 30, 2012, 09:21:41 AM »
Norma;
There are two aspects to using a par-baked crust and getting what you are looking for. The first is to par-bake and then IMMEDIATELY dress the crust and place it back into the oven. The second, and equally as important is not to overbake the crust during the par-baking stage. Some will say that the par-baked crust shouldn't have any color on it at all, while I'm a little more generous and say that it can be tinged with a little light brown, especially on the bottom.
Good luck,
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks so much for telling me about the two aspects using a par-baked crust in what I would like to achieve.  :) I might try a par-bake this coming Tuesday. 

Thanks also for the good luck!

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2012, 06:50:57 PM »
I went to start another batch of Sicilian dough today and got all the ingredients out and here I didn’t have enough of the Better for Bread flour by about 50 grams.  I didn’t feel like going to the supermarket just for flour, so I substituted the Better for Bread flour with the Ceresota all purpose flour.  At least after this attempt with the Ceresota all purpose flour I will know how a lower protein flour performs in the same formulation.  I did use the flat beater on my Kitchen Aid Mixer first to mix all of the ingredients, then switched over to the dough hook and mixed on speed 1 for 9 minutes.  The dough felt about the same as my last attempt. 

Norma


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2012, 11:14:34 AM »
Pictures of the dough ball top and bottom this morning.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2012, 07:23:22 AM »
I am now glad I didn’t have enough Better for Bread flour for the next iteration of the Sicilian pizza I am trying for market.  The Ceresota flour with the same formulation I used better worked out better in my opinion.  I kept the same TF as before.

The dough ball was opened cold and that also seems to work well.  The pan was oiled with not too much corn oil.  The dough was then proofed in the steel pan on top of the deck oven.  A blend of mozzarellas was applied, then the sauce.  The sauce was thinned some for this attempt and it was applied with a bottle in stripes.  A little of Larry’s Greek Oregano was sprinkled on last.  The pie baked well and the crumb was soft and moist, with a little crisp on the bottom crust.  The bottom crust baked evenly in this attempt. I think the only thing I might try for the next attempt is to apply more sauce in another row of stripes going the other way. 

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2012, 07:24:24 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2012, 07:26:02 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2012, 07:27:09 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #64 on: April 04, 2012, 07:27:58 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2012, 07:28:50 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2012, 07:29:37 AM »
Norma


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2012, 07:30:34 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2012, 07:31:25 AM »
Norma

Offline JimmyG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 477
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2012, 08:44:24 AM »
Norma,
Again, your Sicilian looks excellent. I am glad the Ceresota flour worked out well for you. It looks like you solved your "speed bump" problem as well. I noticed the sauce was applied much lighter this time. Was the sauce your regular remade sauce or was this a fresh sauces? I am also curious, what was your deck temp for this pie? In any case, a handsome looking pie all around.
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2012, 09:14:06 AM »
Norma,
Again, your Sicilian looks excellent. I am glad the Ceresota flour worked out well for you. It looks like you solved your "speed bump" problem as well. I noticed the sauce was applied much lighter this time. Was the sauce your regular remade sauce or was this a fresh sauces? I am also curious, what was your deck temp for this pie? In any case, a handsome looking pie all around.

Jim,

Thanks!  :) I think the “speed bump” problems was solved, but will have to do more tests.  The sauce I used is my regular market sauce.  This time it was made with Full Red, garlic, herbs, a little sugar, a sprinkle of Kosher Salt, and Red Cow Parmesan cheese and wasn’t cooked.  The temperature on the deck was about 525 degrees F for this bake.

Norma

Offline FacciaPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 54
  • Location: NY
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2012, 02:17:59 PM »
The crumb looks perfect to me. I would devour that pie.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24062
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2012, 02:41:22 PM »
The crumb looks perfect to me. I would devour that pie.

FacciaPizza,

Thanks!  :) Steve told me he liked this pie the best of all of them so far, but would like more sauce. I agreed with the more sauce idea.  He even told me he would rather eat this kind of pizza than a Neapolitan pizza.  :o I guess that is the Sicilian in him that makes him like this kind of pizza.  :-D I think he is also going to try out the same formulation.

Does anyone know of a better way to apply the sauce?

Norma

Offline JimmyG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 477
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2012, 03:37:16 PM »
Quote
Does anyone know of a better way to apply the sauce?
Norma,
I have seen several saucing methods for Sicilian Pies, one is the squeeze bottle "striping" approach you are currently using. Maybe you could try making a double row of sauce or crisscross like you were planning.

Another approach is to coat the pie in sauce over the cheese i.e. the L&B approach.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17168.msg176003.html#msg176003
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17168.msg175986.html#msg175986
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17168.msg172935.html#msg172935

Alternatively, you could use the Umberto's approach to saucing, making irregular dollops of sauce all over the pie.
http://gothamist.com/2012/02/03/ny_pizza_gets_police_escort_to_lagu.php
https://pmq.com/mag/2004march_april/secretrecipe.shtml
http://www.comfortinthekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/umbertos.jpg

All of which in my opinion produce great results. For the most part, it comes down to preference, yours and your customers.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 03:39:33 PM by JimmyG »
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15868
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2012, 03:46:00 PM »
I gotta put my vote in for the L&B method, although that last Umberto's pic (http://www.comfortinthekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/umbertos.jpg) looks friggin' incredible.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage