Author Topic: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow (Read 20350 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #320 on:** May 23, 2012, 06:24:23 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 23, 2012, 05:54:06 PM

Norma,
Your Sicilian is sure picture perfect, even if it was a little dense. I had that same problem myself with the pizzarium dough. I am beginning to wondering if the crumb density that we have been experiencing is related to our high water temp. I know over 120F, some of the starches in the dough will begin to set which may impede oven spring. I think next we should maybe think about dropping the water temp by 10-15F (so between 110F-120F) and see if we can't get a little better results.
Jim

Jim,

I know you had the same problems yourself with your Pizzarium dough. Your idea would be good to try a little lower hot water temperature when using a soaker to see if crumb density is better. I am still curious what all a soaker does to dough in the flour and water mixture of a soaker and also the final dough.

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #321 on:** May 23, 2012, 07:06:59 PM »

Norma,
I will give an you update on what I suspect is happening based on what has been published in the food chemistry literature. In essence, we using the heat of the water to speed up the enzymes that are active in the flour at a pH of 6.2. The enzymes found at this pH, only break down starches and complex sugars into simple sugars, hence the sweet taste in the dough that we are experiencing. The enzymes which break down proteins, e.g gluten, are active at lower pHs between 3.5-5.0. One of the main by products of yeast and bacteria is acid, which lowers the pH of the dough and begins to active enzymes that break down the proteins in the dough, which is why it weakens and falls apart over time. Since we are not using any yeast or other starters in this soaker, we are able to target those enzymes that only release sugars without affecting the protein composition of the dough. So in essence, we are using a little science and biochemistry to attempt to extract as much flavor out of the dough without effecting its integrity. This same method is also used in beer brewing, which is known as mashing which is probably a better description for what we are doing.
I am still a little puzzled by the quick hydration of the dough and the relative strength of the dough. But I will con't to look for an explanation.
Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #322 on:** May 23, 2012, 08:26:11 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 23, 2012, 07:06:59 PM

Norma,
I will give an you update on what I suspect is happening based on what has been published in the food chemistry literature. In essence, we using the heat of the water to speed up the enzymes that are active in the flour at a pH of 6.2. The enzymes found at this pH, only break down starches and complex sugars into simple sugars, hence the sweet taste in the dough that we are experiencing. The enzymes which break down proteins, e.g gluten, are active at lower pHs between 3.5-5.0. One of the main by products of yeast and bacteria is acid, which lowers the pH of the dough and begins to active enzymes that break down the proteins in the dough, which is why it weakens and falls apart over time. Since we are not using any yeast or other starters in this soaker, we are able to target those enzymes that only release sugars without affecting the protein composition of the dough. So in essence, we are using a little science and biochemistry to attempt to extract as much flavor out of the dough without effecting its integrity. This same method is also used in beer brewing, which is known as mashing which is probably a better description for what we are doing.
I am still a little puzzled by the quick hydration of the dough and the relative strength of the dough. But I will con't to look for an explanation.
Jim

Jim,

Thanks for looking through what has been published in the food chemistry literature that you suspect what might be happening with the soaker. I didn’t know that the enzymes at 6.2 pH only break down starches and complex sugars into simple sugars and that is why we are tasting the sweet tastes in the dough. I know I was taking pH levels on some of my other threads and never really found any conclusions of what was happening with my doughs. Peter was helping me with trying to understand what those pH numbers meant. I can see now if the pH numbers are lower how the acid from the yeast, proteins and gluten can break down dough over time. I saw that quickly on the one thread where I used an amount of a commercial dough enhancer that made the dough fall apart very quickly. That dough just kept stretching and stretching and then just fell apart from the heat and how long I fermented it. The dough fell apart in a matter of hours.

Interesting that you think we are using a little science and biochemistry to attempt to extract as much flavor out of the dough without effecting its integrity. I sure don’t know much about science and biochemistry, but it is fascinating to watch it if that is what we are doing. My friend Steve here on the forum does make homebrew and uses a mash to first brew his beer. I have watched him do that. I also will have to ask him more about his mashing process and what that does. Maybe it will have something to do with dough and maybe not.

I am also puzzled by how strong the dough is and how quickly it hydrates. Thanks for posting that you will continue to look why that is.

I might try a Sicilian dough with the preferment and soaker you set-forth for this coming Tuesday.

Norma

JimmyG · « **Reply #323 on:** May 24, 2012, 01:09:50 PM »

Norma,
If you need help with converting the formula in post #309 to your larger pan, let me know. However, appears as if you now have a solid grasp on how to calculate the formula. Given my math goofs last week with the formulas, I may need you to start double checking my math.

Also, I know mentioned a target temp of between 130-120F in the soaker formula, if you are going to add in the hot water during this round, could you drop the temp by 10-15F, so a target water temp between 120 and 115F. I am just wondering if the low temp will alleviate our issue with the density of the final crust and provide some spring to the crumb.
Jim

norma427 · « **Reply #324 on:** May 24, 2012, 01:26:19 PM »

Quote from: JimmyG on May 24, 2012, 01:09:50 PM

Norma,
If you need help with converting the formula in post #309 to your larger pan, let me know. However, appears as if you now have a solid grasp on how to calculate the formula. Given my math goofs last week with the formulas, I may need you to start double checking my math.

Also, I know mentioned a target temp of between 130-120F in the soaker formula, if you are going to add in the hot water during this round, could you drop the temp by 10-15F, so a target water temp between 120 and 115F. I am just wondering if the low temp will alleviate our issue with the density of the final crust and provide some spring to the crumb.
Jim

Jim,

I think your calculations for a preferment and soaker for a 8”x10” pan are right at Reply 309 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg187993.html#msg187993 I only want to try a preferment and soaker dough in a 8”x10” pan. Your TF of 0.15 in that formulation sounds spot on to me.

I know I will make some goofs in math along the way, before I get everything right. I also might try out your preferment and soaker dough for the Lehmann dough I am trying at market, if I find time to figure it out.

I will take the temperature of the water for the soaker and keep it between 115-120 degrees F. I am also wondering if the lower temperature will alleviate our issue with the density of the final crust and also provide some spring to the crumb.

Thanks for your help!

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #325 on:** May 25, 2012, 10:13:49 AM »

Jimmy and Norma,

You both might be interested in the comments under "pizza" at http://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/23750/flour-and-water-at-which-temperature.

In my experience in working with doughs that were intended to be frozen, I found that when using cold water, or even ice, it was hard to hydrate the flour. The flour in those cases was a fairly high protein flour, and the hydration value was on the relatively low side (characteristic of what is recommended for frozen dough). In other experiments, when the hydration value was much higher, say, 65%, I had no problem hydration the flour with cold water no matter the protein content. It could be anything from all-purpose flour up to high-gluten flour. Apart from these cases, I found that, in general, warm water works best to hydrate a flour. To be honest, I never thought to try to correlate water temperature with flour type and hydration value and their effects on dough or gluten strength.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #326 on:** May 25, 2012, 11:32:30 AM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on May 25, 2012, 10:13:49 AM

Jimmy and Norma,

You both might be interested in the comments under "pizza" at http://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/23750/flour-and-water-at-which-temperature.

In my experience in working with doughs that were intended to be frozen, I found that when using cold water, or even ice, it was hard to hydrate the flour. The flour in those cases was a fairly high protein flour, and the hydration value was on the relatively low side (characteristic of what is recommended for frozen dough). In other experiments, when the hydration value was much higher, say, 65%, I had no problem hydration the flour with cold water no matter the protein content. It could be anything from all-purpose flour up to high-gluten flour. Apart from these cases, I found that, in general, warm water works best to hydrate a flour. To be honest, I never thought to try to correlate water temperature with flour type and hydration value and their effects on dough or gluten strength.

Peter

Peter,

The link you referenced was interesting.

Copied from your link.

pizza
Here, it is important to know what crust you are making. The two variables which will influence your choice of water temperature are how long you want to ferment the dough and how wet your dough is (with the gluten content of your flour modifying the results of wetness, so probably should count as a third variable).
Wetness is important because you want to be able to knead your dough. If you are working at normal hydrations (60 to 75%), any water temperature will produce a kneadable dough. If you are using very high or very low hydrations, you are concerned about your proteins not being able to form a good matrix, due to either not having enough water to absorb (low hydrations) or being mixed in a batter so wet that they can't hook into each other properly. Here, you can use the fact that gluten absorbs cold water much better than warm water. If you are working a hard dough, use warmer water, so the dough stays soft enough during the kneading. If you are working a very wet dough, use cold water. Shirley Corriher recommends throwing crushed ice into the food processor. This will give you stronger, better gluten.
Of course, it is not only the water temperature which determines whether a challenging dough will work well, it is also the protein content of the flour. The higher the protein content of your flour, the more water absorption you can expect. So, if you combine high-protein flour with cold water, you are likely to end up with a dough on the firmer side. If you are already making a low-hydration bread, it could be too firm for good gluten development. So, you may consider warmer water in this case. On the other hand, when you have a high-hydration bread, you are worried about the dough being too wet. You should use cold water then.

Do you think we should be using a colder water for the soaker for added gluten development? Does the above paragraphs mean that cold water will make gluten better?

That would be an interesting experiment to do try to correlate water temperature with flour type and hydration values and their effects on dough or gluten strength.

The other link was also interesting contained in the article at http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/bread/yeast_temp.html I wonder how valid all those ranges of temperatures are when they are applied to pizza dough. The one at 100 degrees F or lower, says when yeast is mixed with water at too low of a temperature, an amino acid called glutathione leaks into the cell walls, making doughs sticky and hard to handle. ‘

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #327 on:** May 25, 2012, 12:43:44 PM »

Norma,

I have no idea as to whether a soaker with increased gluten strength is desirable or not, but maybe Jimmy has an opinion on that. But I interpret the quoted material as saying that gluten benefits from cold water in certain circumstances. Normally, I shoot for a particular finished dough temperature but that is because I want to control the fermentation process. That would not apply to a soaker because it does not contain yeast.

I would say that the temperature ranges in the article you referenced are correct. That also applies to the glutathione (dead yeast). It is also the reason why I never hydrate yeast in cold water. That will only shock the yeast and possibly release the glutathione. I either add the yeast to the flour before adding cold water or I rehydrate the yeast in a small amount of warm water, and use the rest of the water cold. If you do a search at the PMQ Think Tank using the search term "glutathione", you will get several hits, including posts by Tom Lehmann.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #328 on:** May 25, 2012, 07:45:06 PM »

Peter,

I did look at PMQTT for "glutathione", but didn’t find many posts. I saw Tom Lehmann posted that the yeast cells will actually begin feeding upon themselves, in the process releasing glutathione, which can result in unwanted dough softening, or less than optimum yeast/dough performance. I also forgot that glutathione is also like a reducing agent such as L-cysteine/PZ-44.

I will mix the Sicilian “epoxy” dough this evening.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #329 on:** May 25, 2012, 08:23:45 PM »

Norma,

When I did a PMQTT search, I got 14 hits. If you do a search on this forum on glutathione, using my forum name, you will get two pages of hits. There is also a pretty good article on the leaching of glutathione from yeast cells (including dry yeast) at http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_6DRYYE.PDF.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #330 on:** May 25, 2012, 10:42:13 PM »

Peter,

That was a good article from your link. I didn’t know when yeast is dried the cell membrane becomes more porous than usual and during the rehydration the cell membrane recovers, but while this is occurring cell constituents can dissolve in the dough water. It even says that the optimum temperature for membrane recovery is about 104 degrees F. I also didn’t know that warm rehydration maximizes dry yeast performance by quickly reforming the cell membrane. Also didn’t know at lower temperature than 70 degrees F half of the yeast cells’ soluble components can be lost.

Quoted:

“Leaching affects yeast activity because although most of the enzymes remain, the solubles which promoted the activity of the enzymes are depleted. Leaching also affects which can be desirable at low levels in some applications but undesirable in others.”

In the search about glutathione, using your screen name, I guess I can upon one of your first posts at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4159.html#msg4159 There your screen name wasn’t even Pete-zza and you were a guest. You sure knew all about dough even back then.

Then the next post at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4423.html#msg4423 you were then Pete-zza. I understand a little bit more how glutathione can be released by the damaged yeast.

Did you ever do an experiment where you use hotter water like we are using for the soaker in any dough formulation to see what would happen?

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #331 on:** May 26, 2012, 08:36:34 AM »

The soaker and preferment were mixed for the Sicilian attempt last evening. The pH of the soaker right after it was mixed was 5.93. I will try to remember to take the pH of the soaker later on this evening if case anyone is interested. The other soaker that was mixed yesterday with the same flour had a different pH reading this morning. I don’t know why that is, when almost the same water temperature and the same water were used, but would guess that the pH changes some in almost a days time. The water temperature used for this soaker was 117.4 degrees F.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #332 on:** May 26, 2012, 10:46:47 AM »

Quote from: norma427 on May 25, 2012, 10:42:13 PM

In the search about glutathione, using your screen name, I guess I can upon one of your first posts at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4159.html#msg4159 There your screen name wasn’t even Pete-zza and you were a guest. You sure knew all about dough even back then. Then the next post at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4423.html#msg4423 you were then Pete-zza. I understand a little bit more how glutathione can be released by the damaged yeast.

Did you ever do an experiment where you use hotter water like we are using for the soaker in any dough formulation to see what would happen?

Norma,

Reply 8 that you mentioned was my very first post on the forum. At that time, guests could post without registering. Not being a natural joiner, I was not planning to join the forum but Steve convinced me to do so. Reply 11 that you mentioned was after I officially joined.

As for your question about using hotter water to make a dough, the answer is yes. I have experimented with using water temperatures of around 120-130 degrees F, and on occasion even a few degrees higher, just to the point where I wouldn't start to kill the yeast. To get an even hotter dough I have also used a food processor to prepare the dough, along with using a proofing box set to its highest temperature. You can see an example of where I used this general combination at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2250.msg19793.html#msg19793.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #333 on:** May 26, 2012, 12:15:24 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on May 26, 2012, 10:46:47 AM

Norma,

Reply 8 that you mentioned was my very first post on the forum. At that time, guests could post without registering. Not being a natural joiner, I was not planning to join the forum but Steve convinced me to do so. Reply 11 that you mentioned was after I officially joined.

As for your question about using hotter water to make a dough, the answer is yes. I have experimented with using water temperatures of around 120-130 degrees F, and on occasion even a few degrees higher, just to the point where I wouldn't start to kill the yeast. To get an even hotter dough I have also used a food processor to prepare the dough, along with using a proofing box set to its highest temperature. You can see an example of where I used this general combination at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2250.msg19793.html#msg19793.

Peter

Peter,

It is good that you decided to join the forum, because you sure have helped a lot of members, or guests, understand all what can go into making pizza doughs, including me so many times. With all your experiments alone, without all the other times you have helped members understand what their problems are with mostly any pizza doughs, you are a very valuable member of this forum. I should have know you tried hotter water and also a food processor to get the temperature up (for a short time dough), because you have tried about everything.

Thanks for the link!

I wonder if Jim will have any explanations of why a lower water temperature might be needed for a soaker. I don’t understand why a lower water temperature would have anything to do with how a soaker hydrates, forms gluten and matures over a few days period, as long as the water temperature isn’t too high. So far the soakers haven’t broken down and still feel strong when they are ready to be mixed into the final dough. Maybe Jim is concerned of higher water temperatures because of how much they do seem to suck up the water and quickly develop gluten. I still don’t understand what a soaker does (as far as what it does to the grains in the flour), except it seems like it gives a better taste in the crust.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #334 on:** May 26, 2012, 10:11:04 PM »

The pH of the soaker taken a few minutes ago and almost 24 hrs. after it was mixed was 6.23. I sure don’t know what that means, but it also has the sweet taste now. I don’t know what gives the soaker the sweet taste, instead of a flour and water taste, since no yeast is in the soaker. If anyone also wants me to take the pH of the preferment for this dough or other ones I am working on let me know.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #335 on:** May 27, 2012, 03:52:24 PM »

I took the pH numbers of the Sicilian preferment and soaker today over 24 hrs since yesterday, because I was curious to see if the pH numbers of the three preferments would be a lot different. What I find interesting is that the preferment numbers on the Sicilian “epoxy preferment“, Lehmann “epoxy preferment, and Pizzarium “epoxy preferment” had very similar numbers, but the soakers for all three dough were much different than the preferment numbers, even though all three preferments and soakers used the same flours for both the preferment and the soakers. I don’t know what that means, unless maybe if yeast is added the numbers stay somewhat similar when cold fermenting.

Just to compare on this thread the pH numbers are.

Sicilian “epoxy dough” pH numbers
Soaker 6.19
Preferment 5.16

Lehmann “epoxy dough” pH numbers.
Soaker 6.06
Preferment 5.13

Pizzarium “epoxy” dough pH numbers
Soaker 6.12
Preferment 5.16

The other difference is the Sicilian preferment and soaker were made after the other two “epoxy doughs” I also wanted to note that the all three soakers seem to be losing some strength in the gluten. I also don’t know if the losing strength means anything or not.

Norma

dmcavanagh · « **Reply #336 on:** May 27, 2012, 06:34:17 PM »

Norma

When you started doing the "soakers", I had mentioned that this technique was more for whole grain rather then regular wheat flour. The purpose of the soaker was to soften the grains of the whole grain flour so they would be more user friendly in whole grain finished products. What you are noticing is exactly the same thing, the flour is softening too much and the gluten structure is breaking down. Again I suggest you look up Reinhart's "Whole Grains" book and you will get a better appreciation of the method and madness of using a "soaker". I really don't think it is of any benefit with standard white flour, and I think you can now see why.

norma427 · « **Reply #337 on:** May 27, 2012, 08:48:01 PM »

Quote from: dmcavanagh on May 27, 2012, 06:34:17 PM

Norma

When you started doing the "soakers", I had mentioned that this technique was more for whole grain rather then regular wheat flour. The purpose of the soaker was to soften the grains of the whole grain flour so they would be more user friendly in whole grain finished products. What you are noticing is exactly the same thing, the flour is softening too much and the gluten structure is breaking down. Again I suggest you look up Reinhart's "Whole Grains" book and you will get a better appreciation of the method and madness of using a "soaker". I really don't think it is of any benefit with standard white flour, and I think you can now see why.

Dave,

I know when Jim and I started using soakers and a preferment you mentioned that this technique was more of a Reinhart technique and the soakers were to soften the grains. I did read about soakers on The Fresh Loaf website and other places on the web, but didn’t read Reinhart’s Whole Grains book.

I don’t know if the soakers are really breaking down that much that they won’t be able to be used. I had much lower pH numbers in pizza doughs before and the pizzas still turned out okay. I am always looking for maybe new ways to try something and until I go though the experiments won’t really know what will happen. I am more of a experimental person that wants to see the results, before I try to make any conclusions. I have tried crazier things in the past.

I really don’t think the “epoxy method” has been explored that much with regular flour before, but I could be wrong.

Thanks for your help.

Norma

dmcavanagh · « **Reply #338 on:** May 27, 2012, 09:08:58 PM »

Norma

I dabble in sourdough, and although I haven't been doing too much with it lately, I'll tell you what I have a feeling you're dealing with when using soaker doughs. I keep a container of sourdough culture in my fridge at all times, and when I want to do a sourdough bread or pizza I will scoop out a little and then start feeding it to develop my sourdough culture to eventually make my dough. Occasionally, I will use some of that refridgerated culture just as is, not fed, in an attempt to use some of it up without wasting it. Mind you I am also still using a fed and active culture, but just adding the unfed culture as another part of the dough ingredients. I have found over many experiences, that those doughs, even though they may only contain a small amount of that inactive culture, will be very soupy, sticky and a chore to develop into a dough. You may find you will encounter similar experiences when working with your "soaker" doughs, because they are really both very similar. Be on the watch, and let me know if you run into this experience. Thanks, Dave

norma427 · « **Reply #339 on:** May 27, 2012, 10:07:39 PM »

Quote from: dmcavanagh on May 27, 2012, 09:08:58 PM

Norma

I dabble in sourdough, and although I haven't been doing too much with it lately, I'll tell you what I have a feeling you're dealing with when using soaker doughs. I keep a container of sourdough culture in my fridge at all times, and when I want to do a sourdough bread or pizza I will scoop out a little and then start feeding it to develop my sourdough culture to eventually make my dough. Occasionally, I will use some of that refridgerated culture just as is, not fed, in an attempt to use some of it up without wasting it. Mind you I am also still using a fed and active culture, but just adding the unfed culture as another part of the dough ingredients. I have found over many experiences, that those doughs, even though they may only contain a small amount of that inactive culture, will be very soupy, sticky and a chore to develop into a dough. You may find you will encounter similar experiences when working with your "soaker" doughs, because they are really both very similar. Be on the watch, and let me know if you run into this experience. Thanks, Dave

Dave,

I also fooled around with sourdoughs to bake at my friend Steve home, different “wild yeast” Sicilian doughs, and have even tried experiments to try to have a sourdough pizza at market. I never tried what you did in in just using some of the refrigerated culture without feeding it first. I can understand what you are trying to say, but at Jim’s epoxy thread at Reply 16 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.msg187390.html#msg187390 I did have to add more flour because the dough was sticky, but the formulation also had 2% oil which could or could not have made the dough sticky, because the dough was already at 63% hydration. The final pizza with the “epoxy method” turned out good at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.msg187619.html#msg187619 and that attempt was also using the same flour as I am using for this attempt for an “epoxy” Sicilian pizza. I sure don’t know how this Sicilian “epoxy” dough will turn out though.

I appreciate you telling me of your experiences with adding a little unfed culture to some of your sour dough and finding they are very soupy, sticky and a chore to develop the dough.

Do you have any idea of why the soakers get sweet and have a little nutty taste after about a day, even if a regular flour is used? I guess what I am trying to say is maybe, just maybe, a sourdough culture taken out of the fridge and added to a dough isn’t like a soaker. I have tasted many of my sourdough cultures right out of the fridge and none of them had a really sweet taste.

It is always fun for me to experiment, even if I don’t get the desired results I want. It is all a learning process in my trying to understand how different pizza doughs turn out.

Norma