do all sourdough starter cultures become the same?

[Jackie Tran]

I do have an Ischia and a Camaldoli starter that I'm going to leave on the counter for two or three weeks (a little less than a week so far) and then revive and see if there are any differences compared to each other and the controls in the fridge. There is no doubt that they were very different before the start in both flavor and behavior.

Craig, this is a great idea.  Please do this test and update us with a report.  1 week at room temps without feeding is more than sufficient time for a take over.   

[JimmyG]

Chau,
I think I will try to match your the design you have outline for your experiment. In addition, I may incorporate a more complex design on the side, since I have some time to devote to it the next few weeks.
For the first experiment, I will leave out my SD starter and a commercial starter side-by-side on the counter and follow your methods as closely as possible so you have some verification of your results.
Simultaneously, I may bring some old vials home from the lab and utilize the semi-closed environment design to see if I obtain the same results as the ones left on the counter. In the SCE experiment, I am thinking a 3x2 design where I leave two vials of each starter open and two vials close (except during feed) and the last two will be pure water and flour left open and closed and feed as usual. I figure the two vials with just flour and water should not only provide verification of flora migration but may also provide some insight whether or not it is due to the flour or due to starters. Any thoughts are welcome.

[TXCraig1]

Craig, I'd rather hear about it now than later.  I think the CY leaven is still an interesting test even if it is not the original question.  It would still constitute a take over scenario (i think).

I'm not saying it's not a takeover. I'm saying that a rouge yeast taking over a baker's yeast culture is not necessarily the same thing as the rogue yeast taking over a sourdough culture.

For all we know, the very mechanism by which a rogue yeast would take over a bakers yeast culture is the same mechanism by which a sourdough culture would prevent a takeover. My guess is, that if there is a takeover of the baker's yeast culture, it is because the rogue yeast comes with a rogue bacteria and together they create an environment too acidic for the bakers yeast to reproduce leaving the rogue yeast unopposed and free to consume all the oxygen and food. That same mechanism might not work in a sourdough where the yeast has already adapted to the low pH as a defense from takeover.

I think it is meaningful and can't be overstated that nature selected the yeast and bacteria in a sourdough culture and man selected the particular strain of yeast in baker's yeast. In nature, there is only one priority - survive [your competition]. That is about the last thing that man considered when perfecting baker's yeast.

In a "culture" form, do you it is too unstable  or weak to maintain it's original profile?. 

I don’t think it’s vulnerable in dry or cake form, and that’s by man’s design.  In a “culture” – something baker’s yeast was not designed for – it may be vulnerable. Not because it is unstable or weak per se, but because maybe it does not have any defense against such a takeover. Or, perhaps it does. Perhaps it can multiply, use oxygen, and metabolize food so much better than the competition it just dominates? I don’t know. I’m guessing not, but maybe.

Personally, I think there is a fair chance that you will get a takeover or noticeable change of your baker’s yeast culture. I wouldn’t put a big bet on it, but it won’t surprise me if it happens. Conversely, I do not think it is at all likely that rogue yeast can take over a healthy sourdough culture.

CL

[johnnydoubleu]

Wow, my head is kinda spinning as I just read through this whole shebang all at once.

The passion for and about sourdough here is really quite something -- it really is something to behold. I mean it.

I have a few thoughts I wanted to share...

• I respect those (quite a bit really -- I look up to you guys for the quality of pizza you can produce and your passion and dedication) that say they can taste the differences in their starters but the skeptic in me finds this a little hard to believe. It makes me think of when "great" chefs get blind folded (on Top Chef for example) and taste a variety of ingredients -- they invariably get many if not most identifications wrong, even though I bet in their heads they felt (prior to the test) that their cheffy palates should allow them to identify foodstuffs quite well. I still give Chau and Craig the benefit of the doubt though as I know you guys are very experienced.
• I was always under the impression that the LAB is where the flavor (at least most of it if not all) comes from and manipulating the associated acid level is where the varying degrees of sourness (and therefore flavor) come from. I was under the impression that whatever yeast takes hold is for leavening and not much for flavor. Perhaps I am under the wrong impression.
• If all these sourdoughs were so different I wonder why folks like Chad Robertson feel a home cultured sourdough bread can be totally comparable in flavor to a pro bread. There is no mention whatsoever of a variation of flavor caused by the yeast, IIRC.
• It has often been suggested, in a non-technical way, in many recipes for sourdough starter, that you can start with baker's yeast and that it eventually becomes a sourdough. I guess this is flatly wrong? I wonder why this is such a common suggestion if it is erroneous. This idea seems to suggest that a takeover can indeed occur.
• I would attribute most of the vigorousness of my starter to ramping it up with feedings, and less so the intrinsic ability of the wild yeast. Perhaps this is not the case or not entirely the case. I do know that my culture is quite comparable in its ability to leaven (literally gram to gram) to baker's yeast. I feel fortunate to have such a strong, stable culture.

[TXCraig1]

]I respect those (quite a bit really -- I look up to you guys for the quality of pizza you can produce and your passion and dedication) that say they can taste the differences in their starters but the skeptic in me finds this a little hard to believe. It makes me think of when "great" chefs get blind folded (on Top Chef for example) and taste a variety of ingredients -- they invariably get many if not most identifications wrong, even though I bet in their heads they felt (prior to the test) that their cheffy palates should allow them to identify foodstuffs quite well. I still give Chau and Craig the benefit of the doubt though as I know you guys are very experienced.

John, I’d put it this way, I could take my Ischia, Camaldoli, and SF starters and with the same flour, water, and salt, make you three pies that all tasted the same or three pies that taste very different. Flavor is a function of fermentation technique, IMHO.

I was always under the impression that the LAB is where the flavor (at least most of it if not all) comes from and manipulating the associated acid level is where the varying degrees of sourness (and therefore flavor) come from. I was under the impression that whatever yeast takes hold is for leavening and not much for flavor. Perhaps I am under the wrong impression.

I think you are largely right about the flavor coming from the LAB. Intuitively, I don’t believe the specific strains of yeast that are found with the specific strains of LAB are coincidental though. These cultures have been around for a long time, and I don’t think nature is that random.

If all these sourdoughs were so different I wonder why folks like Chad Robertson feel a home cultured sourdough bread can be totally comparable in flavor to a pro bread. There is no mention whatsoever of a variation of flavor caused by the yeast, IIRC.

I don’t understand the first part of the question? Why would different prevent someone from making good bread. It might make it better. I don’t know how much, if any, the yeast adds. I must add some flavor and aroma. I don’t have a view on if the differences caused by different yeasts are meaningful.

It has often been suggested, in a non-technical way, in many recipes for sourdough starter, that you can start with baker's yeast and that it eventually becomes a sourdough. I guess this is flatly wrong? I wonder why this is such a common suggestion if it is erroneous. This idea seems to suggest that a takeover can indeed occur.

Like I said in my last post, I think there is a fair chance that this is in fact plausible.

I would attribute most of the vigorousness of my starter to ramping it up with feedings, and less so the intrinsic ability of the wild yeast. Perhaps this is not the case or not entirely the case. I do know that my culture is quite comparable in it's ability to leaven (literally gram to gram) to baker's yeast. I feel fortunate to have such a strong, stable culture.

I think you’re right about the importance of ramping up the culture before using it.

CL

[johnnydoubleu]

John, I’d put it this way, I could take my Ischia, Camaldoli, and SF starters and with the same flour, water, and salt, make you three pies that all tasted the same or three pies that taste very different. Flavor is a function of fermentation technique, IMHO.

Craig this is what I was trying to get at, that handling fermentation is, to me, what introduces the greatest variances in flavor, not the culture's original origin or yeast. Unless everyone has exactly the same conditions and technique each time (something that, outside of a lab would be quite hard to come by), it would be awfully hard to lock down exactly how and where flavor variations are introduced/created. No question that yeast has some flavor but compared to flavor from acid, it is so minor that many would not be able to perceive it.

[TXCraig1]

Craig this is what I was trying to get at, that handling fermentation is, to me, what introduces the greatest variances in flavor, not the culture's original origin or yeast. Unless everyone has exactly the same conditions and technique each time (something that, outside of a lab would be quite hard to come by), it would be awfully hard to lock down exactly how and where flavor variations are introduced/created. No question that yeast has some flavor but compared to flavor from acid, it is so minor that many would not be able to perceive it.

No, I don't think I said what I meant well. What I'm trying to say is that through fermentation technique I can get the unique flavors out of the individual cultures - not that I can simply turn "sourdough flavor" on and off or coax Ischia flavor out of Camaldoli or SF starter. When I use the word "culture" I'm referring to a specific combination of yeast and bacteria. I absolutely do believe it is this specific combination that is responsible for the flavor and that the flavor differs with the different cultures.

CL

[johnnydoubleu]

Craig, I see. Hmm...

It may be hard to put into words but can you try to explain what these different flavor profiles are? All things being done in the same fashion save for the culture, you clearly get vastly different tastes? Or does each culture require different handling to coax its best flavor out? If each culture is handled differently (needs to be for ideal performance), that has to account for some variation in flavor.

Still sounds like whatever type of LAB (and amount of) is around makes the biggest diff.

[TXCraig1]

Craig, I see. Hmm...

It may be hard to put into words but can you try to explain what these different flavor profiles are? All things being done in the same fashion save for the culture, you clearly get vastly different tastes? Or does each culture require different handling to coax its best flavor out? If each culture is handled differently, that has to account for some variation in flavor.

Still sounds like whatever type of LAB is around makes the biggest diff.

There is no way I can explain the flavor differences. You will have to come over and try it for yourself. Just the raw cultures taste hugely different (and look different as they come up to full activity). I don’t know why people would think they would taste the same in the baked pizza? They are doing the same thing in the dough that they do in the jar.

No doubt handling can have an effect on flavor - as an example, I can make them all tast the same - bland.

Yes, generally speaking you should taste meaningful flavor differences between Camaldoli and Ischia in dough fermented for 48 hours at 60-64F. I don't often use SF for pizza, but when I bake bread I ferment it up in the 90F's http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14627.0.html. I have not tried that with pizza. I don’t want it that sour.

CL

[johnnydoubleu]

Gotcha Craig. That helps a lot. I need to expand my sourdough culture horizons beyond my home cultured one and see this diff 1st hand...that and I totally want to try your pies! I have been leaning on my culture since I have been so pleased with the results. Thanks for helping bringing greater clarity (on this topic) for me.

[akuban]

I need to expand my sourdough culture horizons beyond my home cultured one and see this diff 1st hand...

John: I have some Ischia culture at home in dried form. I have very little of it, but I am willing to share. Let me know if you want it. I may try to revive it, in which case I can hand you off a jar of it when (and if) I get it going.

[johnnydoubleu]

John: I have some Ischia culture at home in dried form. I have very little of it, but I am willing to share. Let me know if you want it. I may try to revive it, in which case I can hand you off a jar of it when (and if) I get it going.

Sweet! Thanks Adam. That would be great! Dry or wet, I'd be happy to take some. Maybe next time we get together you can bring some, or if I am out in Astoria and you are around.

[Jackie Tran]

Craig, I see. Hmm...

It may be hard to put into words but can you try to explain what these different flavor profiles are? All things being done in the same fashion save for the culture, you clearly get vastly different tastes? Or does each culture require different handling to coax its best flavor out? If each culture is handled differently (needs to be for ideal performance), that has to account for some variation in flavor.

Still sounds like whatever type of LAB (and amount of) is around makes the biggest diff.

Johnny, the specifics of SD cultures can get as complicated as we want but in general, I don't think they have to be really difficult.   I have a number of starters on hand, and after feeding with say 30-40% seed, and the starters are active (at the height of their dome), they all vary in how high they have grown in their jars and have drastically different taste profiles.  One in particular rises less than the ischia, but has a much sweeter taste and a light note of acidity, while the ischia has more leavening effect and acidity.  The difference is quite stark.  Almost like comparing the taste of sweeter pineapple to lemon. 

Yes, while the taste of any starter can vary by quite a bit depending on when you use it, young versus mature, it will have a distinct taste and level of acidity if you use it at the same point of fermentation.  A young ischia will always taste young and same with a mature ischia.  But if I allow the ischia starter to rise until it domes or it just starts to recede in the center each time, there is a very specific taste and acidity to it.  Same for all the other starters.  The taste difference is stark.  Almost anyone, even one with an unrefined palate, can differentiate the taste.  Again, it's as if comparing pineapple to lemons.  It can be that different.

And if I use both starters at the same point of fermentation and bake pizza after the same degree of fermentation, the flavor is also quite different in the final result.   Of course the temp at whch you ferment can also affect the flavors, but if you treat both doughs the same, the difference is still there.

Adam and John.  If you guys need dry starter, just pm me. 
Chau

[johnnydoubleu]

Chau, thanks so much for helping further illuminate on the issue of culture taste.

I am gonna PM you for some dry culture/s.

--

Of those of you who have multiple cultures, what are your favs and why?

[Jackie Tran]

Chau, thanks so much for helping further illuminate on the issue of culture taste.

I am gonna PM you for some dry culture/s.

--

Of those of you who have multiple cultures, what are your favs and why?

Johnny, I tend to gravitate towards more mild tasting starters with good lift.  Because of this I often use starters when they are young and try not to overferment the dough prior to baking.  Of the starters I do have, I like the New England starter I received from member Dellacechia, the Patsy starter, and the ischia hybrid starter I created.   I just got the Patsy starter so I'm still playing around with it.  Yes I know Patsy's doesn't use a starter, but the one that is going around is a real starter. 

I haven't ever really given the camaldoli starter a fair shake, so I might activate that one again and see what it is about now that I know a bit more about using starters. 

I am in the process of starting a new one from grapes and margarine orange peels.  Well see how that one turns out. 

Chau

[Bill/SFNM]

Of those of you who have multiple cultures, what are your favs and why?

I don't think I have a particularly discriminating palate, especially compared to some "super-tasters" in my circle of friends and family, but we can all tell the difference between the different cultures. Which is my favorite - like with children, they are all my favorites. My current routine is rotate through the different cultures I have weekly. Whatever culture is on deck for that week is used for all breads and pizzas. If you put a gun to my head and force me into a "Sophie's choice", I think I would pick the French starter from sourdo.com because a) it is the one that I'm using this week and 2) it can have the most subtle and complex flavor. Check with me next week - maybe a different answer.
  

[johnnydoubleu]

Chau, my starter was cultivated literally a 15 minute walk from Di Fara (and a 3 minute walk from Lo Duca), so we'll call mine the Di Fara culture! I am gonna dry some fresh, very active starter for you so we can do a swap, sound good?

Bill, appreciate your candor.

--

Have any of you seen or tried this recipe for "cresciuta" from Mary Ann Esposito?

http://www.ciaoitalia.com/seasons/recipes/starter

Have any of you tried the Florapan (available from King Arthur) dried, French-style (made in Canada) starter?

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/french-sourdough-starter-5g

[JimmyG]

Have any of you tried the Florapan (available from King Arthur) dried, French-style (made in Canada) starter?
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/french-sourdough-starter-5g

Does anyone have logical reason why the KA Florapan Starter would contain "...traces of beef"? I am scratching my head on this one.

[Jackie Tran]

Sounds great John.  I'm always up to trying a new starter.  Never know when I'll run into that great one.  The time to dry it is probably as the starter is doming.  You don't want it too acidic as it has to sit awhile while drying.  I usually take about a tablespoon full and spread it really thin on a sheet of wax or parchment paper.  I then place it on a rack at room temps or under a light.  Once it drys, I break it up and ship it in a ziplock bag.  It should be light and flakey.  I have gotten starters before that are hard and tough, and they seem to take a bit longer to activate.  I've been told that my starters are activating after a day to a day and a half.  I usually give it a good 2 days at 90F.  

Can you tell me a bit about your DiFara Starter?  When it active, does it get really active?  How is the leavening strength on it?  When it is active and doming how acidic is it?  Mild, moderate, or really acidic?  Do you notice any other flavors to it whether good or bad?  I've had some starters that I've made that had off flavors, while others seem to have a slight sweetness to them.  

I haven't tried these other starters but they sound very interesting.  

[JimmyG]

For those who are interested, I uploaded a review paper to google docs that outlines about many of the issues which have been brought up in the last 24h regarding SD and flavor, e.g. do yeast contribute to flavor, yes they do. Does the flour matter, apparently yes, etc . This paper is pretty readable for the most part, as far as scientific papers are concerned.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B43DPUO8isiXTzh4R19nVXpUdWFwTWh4MG16TlhSdw