do all sourdough starter cultures become the same?

[Jackie Tran]

Marc I think it could work but it wouldn't be practical.  Not many, including myself have easy  access to dry ice or liquid nitrogen.

[ThePieman]

Marc I think it could work but it wouldn't be practical.  Not many, including myself have easy  access to dry ice or liquid nitrogen.

Dry ice is readily available. Look in the yellow pages under "ice."

On a side note, bakers yeast, brewing yeast, grape yeast... will not survive the acidity of a sourdough starter. They will be long gone by the time the sourdough starter is cultured and viable. That is why the idea of using grapes to culture a sourdough colony, is laughable. Just one of the many myths attached to the entire sourdough voodoo thing. 

[JimmyG]

Marlon and Chau,
Do either of you plan to incorporate the starters in to doughs during the experiment or is this going to be a straight taste test of the starter?

[Jackie Tran]

Dry ice is readily available. Look in the yellow pages under "ice."

On a side note, bakers yeast, brewing yeast, grape yeast... will not survive the acidity of a sourdough starter. They will be long gone by the time the sourdough starter is cultured and viable. That is why the idea of using grapes to culture a sourdough colony, is laughable. Just one of the many myths attached to the entire sourdough voodoo thing. 

Yes but not practical.  Not many are not interested in sourcing and storing dry ice.  Not many are even interested in participating and all that is require so far is feeding a starter once a day.

I'm not understanding you here.  We're not questioning if CY, IDY, or ADY will survive the acidity of a SD Starter.   We are trying to see if an established yeast colony (cy, idy, ady, or starter) can be taken over by dormant or rogue yeast from the flour food source.  If a SD culture does establish itself in my CY leaven kept at room temps, then we have our answer.  That local dormant yeast presumably from the flour can take over an existing yeast colony.

Yes I know that a CY, IDY, or ADY leaven is not a starter but it still serves the same purpose for this test.  I just thought it would be easier to use for detecting any new yeast culture growth since CY and commercial yeast are relatively flavorless.

I am also testing a mild starter at room temps along side the CY leaven.

That is why the idea of using grapes to culture a sourdough colony, is laughable
Why? I don't understand.  Are you saying that it is not possible to culture wild yeast from grapes? If so, then this whole thread has been a waste of time.  If we can't propagate a yeast culture from grapes, then how can we have any takeover from dormant yeast from flour or the skins of any fruit?

Did you read the entire thread?  Please put more explanation into your posts so I don't have to wonder what you are talking about.

Thanks.

[Jackie Tran]

Marlon and Chau,
Do either of you plan to incorporate the starters in to doughs during the experiment or is this going to be a straight taste test of the starter?

Just straight taste, unless there is an obvious change in flavor, then I will bake up pizza or bread using the original Starter versus the new one to see if there is a difference in the end product. 

[JimmyG]

Just straight taste, unless there is an obvious change in flavor, then I will bake up pizza or bread using the original Starter versus the new one to see if there is a difference in the end product.

That is easy enough to follow along with .

[parallei]

When you settle on an approch, and if you want more "data" I'll give it a go.

[Jackie Tran]

When you settle on an approch, and if you want more "data" I'll give it a go.

Thanks Paul.  For now, if anyone is interested, I would say pick out your favorite starter or one that you are really familiar with the flavor and aroma.   Split it in two and keep a starter at room temps for 2-3 weeks feeding it 1-2x a day (your preference).  Try to feed at similar times in the day and try not to neglect it for 34 days as that might weaken the starter too much.

Prior to feeding or preferably when the starter is at it's peak activity (doming), taste a bit of the starter to see of you recognize if and when it has change in it's unique flavor.  This would unscientifically indicate that a new yeast culture has invaded and either taken over or significantly changed your original culture. 

This is with the presumption that participants 1) know how to care for and use a starter and 2) that you are aware and familiar with the differences between a young and a mature starter.  They differ in acidity (but not flavor) even though they ae the same starter.  How mature a starter becomes depends on how far you let it ferment.

If anyone is curious, you can also keep a CY or commercial yeast leaven alongside your starter to seeif it too can be taken over.

[TXCraig1]

I'm not understanding you here.  We're not questioning if CY, IDY, or ADY will survive the acidity of a SD Starter.   We are trying to see if an established yeast colony (cy, idy, ady, or starter) can be taken over by dormant or rogue yeast from the flour food source.  If a SD culture does establish itself in my CY leaven kept at room temps, then we have our answer.  That local dormant yeast presumably from the flour can take over an existing yeast colony.

Recognizing that if we start with a baker's yeast (CY, IDY, or ADY) culture, that answer cannot be assumed to also apply to a sourdough culture.

CL

[Jackie Tran]

Recognizing that if we start with a baker's yeast (CY, IDY, or ADY) culture, that answer cannot be assumed to also apply to a sourdough culture.

CL

Yes that is why I'm keeping the CY leaven just as an aside test.  I'm already testing a starter so feeding one more is not that difficult.  The CY leaven is not a starter but it still is yeast, and I am simply interested in seeing if dormant yeast can overtake a healthy yeast culture regardless if its commercial in nature or not.  And if local yeast can take over a Cy leaven, then that increases the possibility of Sd starter takeover, which is the original question.

[TXCraig1]

And if local yeast can take over a Cy leaven, then that increases the possibility of Sd starter takeover, which is the original question.

No. It has no bearing on it whatsoever. You are talking about at least two entirely different species (not strains) of yeast. They are not even the same genus. There is no reason to believe that a yeast that evolved in nature to resist invasion in an open environment will have any of the same weaknesses as a yeast that was purposefully selected to meet the requirements of the baker in a very controlled environment. Baker's yeast needs to work well in its delivery system (dry, cake, etc); it needs to give good lift; and it needs to perform consistently and predictably. It does not need the ability to survive in a "culture" type environment.

[JimmyG]

Yes that is why I'm keeping the CY leaven just as an aside test.  I'm already testing a starter so feeding one more is not that difficult.  The CY leaven is not a starter but it still is yeast, and I am simply interested in seeing if dormant yeast can overtake a healthy yeast culture regardless if its commercial in nature or not.  And if local yeast can take over a Cy leaven, then that increases the possibility of Sd starter takeover, which is the original question.

I am wondering if it wouldn't be more efficient to place the commercial (IDY, ADY or CY) starter in the same container with the sourdough cultures we have previously maintained.  I guess what I mean is to take one large Tupperware container with a tight lid and stick two separate vials into the container. In one vial would be the commercial starter and the other vial would contain the sourdough culture. The lids of both vials should probably be punctured to ensure that migration could take place, however the container lid should remain intact.  I am just thinking this option would offer a quasi-controlled environment for the experiment. If a takeover does occur, it should be easier to identify as both starters would become more similar rather than remaining distinct.

[JimmyG]

And if local yeast can take over a Cy leaven, then that increases the possibility of Sd starter takeover, which is the original question.

No. It has no bearing on it whatsoever. You are talking about at least two entirely different species (not strains) of yeast. They are not even the same genus. There is no reason to believe that a yeast that evolved in nature to resist invasion in an open environment will have any of the same weaknesses as a yeast that was purposefully selected to meet the requirements of the baker in a very controlled environment. Baker's yeast needs to work well in its delivery system (dry, cake, etc); it needs to give good lift; and it needs to perform consistently and predictably. It does not need the ability to survive in a "culture" type environment.

Chau and Craig,
There is only one way to find out. 

[Jackie Tran]

No. It has no bearing on it whatsoever. You are talking about at least two entirely different species (not strains) of yeast. They are not even the same genus. There is no reason to believe that a yeast that evolved in nature to resist invasion in an open environment will have any of the same weaknesses as a yeast that was purposefully selected to meet the requirements of the baker in a very controlled environment. Baker's yeast needs to work well in its delivery system (dry, cake, etc); it needs to give good lift; and it needs to perform consistently and predictably. It does not need the ability to survive in a "culture" type environment.

Ok fine.  I'll do 2 separate experiments to satisfy my curiosity and not draw any inferences between the two.  I think I will also be maintaining a second SD starter to see if one becomes like the other or if both change completely and become alike.  Craig, are you going to be particpating?

[Jackie Tran]

I am wondering if it wouldn't be more efficient to place the commercial (IDY, ADY or CY) starter in the same container with the sourdough cultures we have previously maintained.  I guess what I mean is to take one large Tupperware container with a tight lid and stick two separate vials into the container. In one vial would be the commercial starter and the other vial would contain the sourdough culture. The lids of both vials should probably be punctured to ensure that migration could take place, however the container lid should remain intact.  I am just thinking this option would offer a quasi-controlled environment for the experiment. If a takeover does occur, it should be easier to identify as both starters would become more similar rather than remaining distinct.

Jimmy it would be better to maintain 2 starters side by side and see if they both change and if they become more like one another.  That's what I will be doing.

[TXCraig1]

Ok fine.  I'll do 2 separate experiments to satisfy my curiosity and not draw any inferences between the two.  I think I will also be maintaining a second SD starter to see if one becomes like the other or if both change completely and become alike.  Craig, are you going to be particpating?

It will be hard with a daily feeding schedule. I'm out a fair bit over the next couple weeks.

[Jackie Tran]

No worries.  Perhaps at a later date.  Thank you for your input.

[TXCraig1]

Ok fine. 

I'm not trying to be a pain in the arse...

Just trying to point out what I see as an apples and oranges comparison.

[TXCraig1]

I do have an Ischia and a Camaldoli starter that I'm going to leave on the counter for two or three weeks (a little less than a week so far) and then revive and see if there are any differences compared to each other and the controls in the fridge. There is no doubt that they were very different before the start in both flavor and behavior.

[Jackie Tran]

I'm not trying to be a pain in the arse...

Just trying to point out what I see as an apples and oranges comparison.

Craig, I'd rather hear about it now than later.  I think the CY leaven is still an interesting test even if it is not the original question.  It would still constitute a take over scenario (i think).  In a "culture" form, do you it is too unstable  or weak to maintain it's original profile?  That is after 2-3 weeks of keeping it at room temps and feeding it AP flour daily, will it develop any other yeasts besides the native culture?    Or is will it maintain it's true nature.  This is simply a question of, can a relatively miniscule amount of dormant yeast in the flour (or air or wherever) overtake an active and thriving cake yeast culture?

Anyone want to wager at an outcome?   Personally I'm torn.  I don't think so, but I don't think professionals who claim take overs are possible are simply making it up or crazy either.