do all sourdough starter cultures become the same?

[johnnydoubleu]

For those that aren't familiar with Deb Wink, here is an absolutely killer, super illuminating post of hers on sourdough that is quite germane to our discussion:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough

"Contrary to myth, the species that grow in sourdough starters are not tied to geographic location, but rather to the traditional practices in the different regions. Several organisms go into the mix, but the environment created inside the starter from the combination of flour, temperature and maintenance routines is what determines which ones will thrive. In type I, or traditional sourdoughs (i.e., those maintained by continuous refreshment at room temperature), the obligately heterofermentive Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis is the species most frequently and consistently found---not just in San Francisco where it was first discovered, but all around the world. And so it deserves special attention."

What she describes so articulately and scientifically is why I think the final flavor outcome has far more to do with the handling of the culture and the management of fermentation than where the culture came from. I can manipulate any number of factors that influence flavor without leaning on this culture or that.

--

Chau, in spite of the fact that I don't have a culture from sourdo.com from Italy or where ever, my homemade culture exhibits all the desirable charactertics I could ask for -- it is sweet smelling, more lactic than acetic, and ferments like the Dickens. I can't expect you guys to follow all my posts here and on Slice, but some of you know I haven't used baker's yeast in about 2 years and I never, ever use anything other than my culture as a leaven (not one iota of baker's yeast is used to augment the sourdough). It's a cheat, and I simply won't do it.

I created my culture by mostly following Ms. Wink's preferred method (coupled with a bit of my own intuition), interestingly.

This is an example of the type of rise and crumb I get with my culture (in this case with unbromated AP -- sorry for the crappy 3GS photo):
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17168.msg172920.html#msg172920

FWIW, I use a liquid levain, not a firm one. I much prefer the results and the practicality. I add my levain directly to the formula water.

Also, I have dried it before and my "little" sister successfully revived it very quickly and makes bread with it all the time.

I think you'll enjoy the "Di Fara" culture quite a bit!

[Jackie Tran]

Johnny, I'll be the first to say I'm no expert at anything.  All I do is experiment and report what I find.  I'm okay with being wrong, no harm in that.  I think Deb Wink could be correct in her theory, but I would like to hear other ppl's thoughts on her post. 

I agree with you that there lots of ways to influence flavor with SD cultures, temp being a big one. 

Johnny I'll have to disagree with you about baker's yeast and commercial yeast.  IMO, it's not inferior whatsoever.  I know you didn't say it, but I can almost hear you.  It's just a different type of yeast.  It has it's function and place in the world.  We are lucky enough to have access to all 3, so we use what we want.  If I had no sourdough starter, no CY, and only IDY, or ADY, I'd be thrilled to death to have it.   I use all of them interchangeably for different purposes.  I just don't want new members to feel like they are left out if they don't use a starter.  It's absolutely NOT necessary to make really great pizza. 

Craig and I had an AWESOME pie from Amano, and I'm pretty sure it was CY.   I'm sure lots of places make mediocre pizza with starters.  IMHO, starters don't outshine commercial yeast or baker's yeast UNLESS, you can get the proper texture with it.  Without the proper texture, I'd rather have IDY or CY and give up on the flavor of a SD.   Sorry to go on and I know you weren't dumping on CY.  BTW, your L&B pie looks spot on.  I'm sure it was delicous. 

You were simply saying you don't need to enhance the lift of your starter with CY and that's great.  I'd love to try it out.  I have added IDY to some of my starters to help with the lift or balance out the acidity.  I find it helps, but I'm sure there are many who disagree with the practice.  To me, they are all just different tools.  Use it if you need it or want it.   

How are you feeding your liquid levain and how do you decide when it is ready to use?

Chau

[johnnydoubleu]

Chau, I totally have no issue with baker's yeast at all, I just figure if I am gonna use a culture I should go whole hog and I do take some pride in that. I really like Forcella's pizza for example and I am pretty sure Giulio uses cake yeast. My experiences are mostly observational and anedcotal -- I lean on folks like Deb Wink for the science as I am certainly no biologist or chemist (I studied psych, biz and the Grateful Dead ).

With the liquid levain, it use it when the surface is totally covered with micro bubbles and it is just beginning to recede from the sides of its container. It has been at room temp for 2-3 days at this point and fed when I can get to it. There is about an hour or so window of use at that point depending on environmental factors.

[Jackie Tran]

Chau, I totally have no issue with baker's yeast at all, I just figure if I am gonna use a culture I should go whole hog and I do take some pride in that. I really like Forcella's pizza for example and I am pretty sure Giulio uses cake yeast. My experiences are mostly observational and anedcotal -- I lean on folks like Deb Wink for the science as I am certainly no biologist or chemist (I studied psych, biz and the Grateful Dead ).

With the liquid levain, it use it when the surface is totally covered with micro bubbles and it is just beginning to recede from the sides of its container. It has been at room temp for 2-3 days at this point and fed when I can get to it. There is about an hour or so window of use at that point depending on environmental factors.

Thanks for telling me how you use your liquid levain.  How much water and flour go into it and how much of a seed do you use? or how much of the levain is starter to begin with?  

We are a lot alike in that my experiences are mostly observational and anecdotal as well.  I definitely think it's great that you take pride in using straight starter, as you should.  Starters are not easy to maintain and use properly.  It took me a long time to figure out how to use a starter.  When I started a few years back, I don't think many of the membership understood starters and shared about it like they do today.  Folks were still mixing the hooch back in for goodness sakes.  Like I said, I think a lot of folks would disagree with alot of my practices.  I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm not one to swim with the crowd.  I shoot for results first and the admiration of the crowd second.    

[TXCraig1]

Folks were still mixing the hooch back in for goodness sakes.  

I still do! 

[TXCraig1]

That or drink it... 

[Jackie Tran]

I still do! 

That's okay Craig.  Most of the starter still gets dumped anyway right?

That or drink it... 

Is this right before you go kill animals? 

[johnnydoubleu]

Craig, have you really drank the hootch or are you just playin'?

I would be lying if I said I haven't though about it!  

--

Chau, my answer to your last question is gonna take a little bit so expect it sometime mañana. Gotta get to bed!

[Jackie Tran]

Okay so I just wanted to do a quick update on the procedure I am using to keep the starters at room temps.  I am feeding once a day.  twice is too much work!  

To dummy down the process a bit, I have been using 1gm of a starter seed, ~8 gm water, and ~12gm of flour.   I was weighing out out everything for a few days but that is still a lot of work.  

As of tonight, I have now simplified the process a bit more.  Prior to feeding each night around 9-10pm, I give the starter a taste.  It's a bit acidic but not overly.  The starters are mature but not liquid or overly acidic.  I then scrape as much of it out of the container as possible, only leaving a small remnants that cling to the container wall.  That is approximately 1 gm of starter.  

To this I add about 80% of a Tablespoon of water, which equals about 8gm.  I then stir the water to release the starter from the side wall.  Using a separate Tablespoon measure, I then add about 120% of a Tablespoon (heaping Tbs) of AP flour into the container and mix well.  It forms a dough ball that is about 67% hydration.   It takes a bit of mixing with a chopstick (my stir) to get an even consistency.

That's about it.  I can do 3 starters in less than 5 minutes and I'm done for the day.  Whenever I get home from work, I have been opening each starter and tasting a small bit.  I also taste again prior to feeding each night to try and compare the differences.   So far it's interesting that the CY leaven is showing abit of acidity.  

I'm looking forward to testing these out in a few weeks side by side against their brother starters that are in the fridge to see the differences if any.   If nothing else, I have now settled on a method of keeping a starter at room temps.  In the past, I just didn't come up with a satisfactory method of maitenance and feeding, thus I kept my starters in the fridge.  

[TXCraig1]

Craig, have you really drank the hootch or are you just playin'?

I would be lying if I said I haven't though about it!  

I was just playin, but now I'm going to have to try it.

[johnnydoubleu]

Craig, I was/am pretty broke at the moment and for a kicks a few months ago I made some "jungle juice" with some store bought fruit punch that happened to be in the fridge. Fermented for about a week with some ADY (fermented till it was clear it was mostly done fermenting).  Wasn't really that bad (really it wasn't -- and was actually pretty dry) and compared favorably to those truly gross flavored malt liquors with all those off flavors. Filtered it through a coffee filter set in a strainer (and left the very end bit of settled yeast behind). Oh the things I'll do for a buzz!

BTW, that Wink article I linked to -- wasn't at all trying to be contrary...no reason why a symbiotic set of yeast and bacteria, especially those stored in a fridge couldn't maintain its general make-up for some time (or near indefinitely). However, she doesn't really seem to be engaging in theory (Chau) in the post -- they tested these sourdoughs in labs around the world and she is reporting her findings, not drawing conjecture. As usual, I think the "truth" (for lack of a better word) lies somewhere in the middle. I have no doubt your sourdoughs are currently all different and are likely to remain so in light of the way you handle them. Nonetheless, the picture Deb paints is pretty black and white.

[Jet_deck]

 It forms a dough ball that is about 67% hydration.   

Chau-
So your room temp starters are "dough balls" and not liquid?

[dellavecchia]

Okay so I just wanted to do a quick update on the procedure I am using to keep the starters at room temps.

Chau - This is exactly how I do it, and the "stiff" method is how many Italians keep their lievito madre. When I want to make pizza, I feed it twice a day (once at night, then the next morning). But the last feeding I make it 100% hydration so I can dissolve the mixture in the dough water. They are kept in a location that is 65-68 degrees.

BTW, these are awesome for keeping starters:

http://www.crateandbarrel.com/dining-and-entertaining/bar-and-drinking-glasses/working-glass-with-lid/f36638

John

[Matthew]

FWIW, I maintain my starter at 50% hydration.

Matt

[johnnydoubleu]

Part of what I have been trying to get at is that the way we store and revive these starters is likely the primary reason for why they taste different. If you follow a regional method (like John just mentioned) you end up with a different balance of acetic vs lactic and vice versa -- not that there is some special magic from a sourdough from a particular place -- the "magic" is in how each region (or person) arrives at their sourdough culture. I prefer to have a wetter mother and starter so that I can have a sweeter, more lactic, quick fermenting sourdough. I also find it more practical.

[Bill/SFNM]

Part of what I have been trying to get at is that the way we store and revive these starters is likely the primary reason for why they taste different. If you follow a regional method (like John just mentioned) you end up with a different balance of acetic vs lactic and vice versa -- not that there is some special magic from a sourdough from a particular place -- the "magic" is in how each region (or person) arrives at their sourdough culture. I prefer to have a wetter mother and starter so that I can have a sweeter, more lactic, quick fermenting sourdough. I also find it more practical.

I can't agree. I've stored and revived all of my starters the exact same way for several years. The flavors are all different. Yes, I can make each starter behave very differently by tweaking times and temps and ingredients. But they all still have unique personalities.

[johnnydoubleu]

Bill, I am not saying it well, I'm sorry. I far more mean what was involved in the original composition of the culture and then to a much lesser degree how it was handled and maintained.

Did anyone read the Wink post? Are you refuting it?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough

[Jackie Tran]

Chau-
So your room temp starters are "dough balls" and not liquid?

Yes Gene, after feeding it is in a dough form, but after 24hours, it's soft and bubbly.  Not quite liquid though.  It's still a starter for all intents and purposes.  

John, thank you for letting me know that you maintain your room temp starter the same way.  I was going to dilute it before using as well.  

Thanks Matt for letting us know how you keep your starter as well.   Can I get you two to weigh in on the discussion?  Have you noticed your starter changing by maintaining it (or them) at room temps versus cold fermentation.

Johnny, thanks for linking that article by Deborah Wink again.  It's a good read and I missed it the first time.  I just quickly skimmed it, but it sounds like cold versus room temps causes the same starter to take different fermentation pathways, so you will get different flavor profiles.  I think many of us were semi aware of this, but does it constitute a take over?  

So if you take a cold fermented starter to room temps for 2 weeks and you do get a change in flavor profile, would that same starter revert back to it's original profile once you return it to the cold?  If it does then it hasn't changed permanently, if it does not then there is (loose) evidence of a takeover.

I found this part interesting...

"In yeasted breads, acids come in small doses from naturally occurring bacteria present in flour and commercial yeast. (Fresh yeast generally has more bacterial inhabitants than dried, and whole grain flours more than refined.) In sourdough breads, acid-producing bacteria are supplied in much greater numbers from starter. There are many different species and strains of bacteria found in various types of starters, and because they produce lactic acid while fermenting sugar, they fall under the heading of Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB)."

So if my CY leaven sours, it doesn't neccesarrily mean that a new yeast source has taken over and my leaven has become a SD starter.  It could simply mean that different bacteria that thrive at room temps have moved it.  The question again, would those bacteria stay permanantly or give way to the colder temp loving bacteria if the leaven is returned to the fridge?

Chau

[TXCraig1]

Have any of you tried the Florapan (available from King Arthur) dried, French-style (made in Canada) starter?

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/french-sourdough-starter-5g

Jimmy,

My guess is the bacteria come from a bovine source or are grown in a growth medium that contains something bovine. I can’t imagine why either would be necessary, but what else could it be?

In any case, Florapan contains Lactobacillus brevis and also requires the use of baker’s yeast for leavening. It would be considered a “Type III” sourdough.

Craig

[TXCraig1]

Did anyone read the Wink post? Are you refuting it?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough

I read it, and I would refute it in part. The author writes:

“Contrary to myth, the species that grow in sourdough starters are not tied to geographic location, but rather to the traditional practices in the different regions. Several organisms go into the mix, but the environment created inside the starter from the combination of flour, temperature and maintenance routines is what determines which ones will thrive.”

This may or may not be true; I agree that there is a relatively limited number of yeast and bacteria species responsible for the various sourdough cultures. For the sake of argument, let’s assume it is true. What I think the author is overlooking is that while the species may be the same, there are likely untold numbers of strains of these species in the different cultures. The species may be the same in samples taken from different geographic locations, but that in no way imples the strains are the same.

Consider beer and wine making. S. cerevisiae is the principal strain of yeast employed; now consider the hundreds of strains commercially available and the wide spectrum of results that they produce. There are specific strains for almost every type of wine and beer. Many beer and wine types have multiple strains offered that produce very tailored flavors and aromas. There are dozens of volatile and non-volatile  compounds formed by the yeast and bacteria. The different strains produce different compounds and in different ratios. One species can produce a myriad of different results depending on the strain.

Craig