do all sourdough starter cultures become the same?

[cornicione54]

Activity after about 40 hours in a flour and water mixture (uncontaminated) is not unusual. It's usually enterobacter/leuconostoc/aerobacter? taking first dibs. It starts off fairly innocuous in flavour but can sometimes turn rather unpleasant later.

[JimmyG]

I do agree that it could take place in a short amount of time, however, there was a noticeable difference in activity between the FW samples. The one in the closed environment with the SD starter was definitely active where as the closed container sample by itself showed sparse bubbling activity ( I really wished I took a photo of this container this morning). The activity level between the two FW samples were definitely distinct.

[TXCraig1]

Second feeding. The cultures from the fridge are fully active and taste as they should. The counter cultures were showing signs but still pretty slow. They both tasted about the same - mostly like flour.

CL

[TXCraig1]

All 4 had noticeably increased activity this morning. The counter Camaldoli looks to be lagging the other three a little.

[TXCraig1]

All 4 have decent activity now. The 2 from the fridge smell and taste exactly as they should. The 2 counter cultures both taste about the same, and the taste is not good. They are much less acidic, and stiffer too. I'll check them again in the morning.

[TXCraig1]

I tasted the four tonight before feeding, and the counter cultures have really improved. They lost their nasty taste, gained some acidity, and are now tasting like milder versions of their properly cared for brothers.

CL

[JimmyG]

I wanted to get this update posted yesterday but unfortunately ran out of time, so I am posting it this morning instead.
Yesterday morning I opened the open containers/closed environment group and it stunk.The only smell that comes to mind is old wet socks or my football locker room in high school.  The SD starter and the FW starter were both active, however the SD starter had exhausted its food supply.  The FW sample looked as if it was beginning to slow down as well. I tasted both samples. The SD starter tasted the same a it normally does. The FW sample however was beginning to taste similar to the SD starter.   I was a little surprised by this, however it is not a perfect match and there are still some flavor differences between the two sample.

In the two closed container groups, the FW sample was beginning to show some activity, however their was no SD flavor to it and it tasted like flour and water. The SD sample also had eaten through its food supply and slowed down like the other SD stater. This SD tasted and smelled the same as before and the same the other SD starter.
Below are some photos. The first group is the open containers closed environment group. In the top pic, the FW mix is on the left and the SD is on the right. The next pic is the SD and the following the FW.  

[JimmyG]

This group is the Closed container / open environment group. The first photo is the SD sample and the second is the FW sample.

[Jackie Tran]

All 4 have decent activity now. The 2 from the fridge smell and taste exactly as they should. The 2 counter cultures both taste about the same, and the taste is not good. They are much less acidic, and stiffer too. I'll check them again in the morning.

And the 2 counter cultures taste distinctly different as do the fridge samples, just more mild?

[JimmyG]

Chau,
I did not start a plain flour and water sample in the fridge so that I cannot comment on that aspect. All of these samples are being kept at room temp.  The two SD starters from my original mother culture in the fridge were all identical to each other and identical to my mother dough in the fridge though.

Never mind, I see that question was for Craig. Didn't read the quote.

[TXCraig1]

And the 2 counter cultures taste distinctly different as do the fridge samples, just more mild?

Yes, as of this morning, the counter cultures are really starting to taste like their refrigerator brotheren. Still not quite as acidic and slightly stiffer.

CL

[JimmyG]

I did another feeding this morning. Not much has changed. Both SD starters have retained their original flavor. The FW sample in the closed environment is begining to taste similar to the SD starter in the same container, only not quite as sharp. I would use the analogy that its like tasting lite and regular beer from the same brewery. You can tell that the beer comes from brewery X, but there are some minor differences in flavor. At this point I cannot tell if this similarity is due to the flour, the water or flora migration. I should note that the flavor of both FW samples still remain distinctly different in taste and their physical characteristics.  Hopefully over the next week, as the FW samples fully mature, more pronounced similarities and differences will emerge.

[JimmyG]

I refed my starters this morning. The only new finding is that the FW sample in the closed container/open environment group is now fully active and tastes distinctly different from the other FW sample. One other thing I found to be interesting was this sample was the only sample to produced some hootch as a byproduct, whereas the other 3 samples did not. Other than these observations, nothing else had changed with the three other samples. 

[TXCraig1]

I'm going out of town for a week leaving tomorrow, so I'm ending the experiment today. While the two counter cultures got a lot more acidic - about the same as their healthy counterparts - there was something else going on in them. They had a really nasty background taste. It was like Ischia or Camaldoli should taste but with some rotten stinky culture blended in. For kicks and grins, I cultured some straight KABP (what I'd been feeding them) and it wreaked. I didn't taste it, but it seems reasonable that is what contaminated the counter cultures. I can't say if the Ischia and Camaldoli would have regained control after some period of time, but as of today, they were certainly compremised. Given every advantage, (weak, next to death culture, heavily diluted in when feeding [1 part culture to 10 parts flour]), it does appear that a rogue culture can indeed get a foothold - at least temporarily. If I was to try it again, I would not dilute the counter culture - just add flour to it over time to bring it back - that way it would have a much more acidic, antibiotic, environment that might make it more difficult for the contaminants to get a foothold.

[Jackie Tran]

Craig, thanks for posting your results.  My 2 counter cultures also had something stinky in them.  After mutliple refeedings at room temps with a very small seed in an attempt to dilute that stinkiness out, that stinkiness seem to persevere.  I have those 2 room temperature cultures in the fridge now and feeding them once a week like my other cultures.  I'll make an update as to whether or not the stinkiness will ever go away, even after a prolong fridge life. 

I also noted in my posts, that depite the stinkiness odor, when I made young starters with the room temp cultures or fridge kept cultures, all seem to have a very similar taste.   So my cultures smelled different but in the end all tasted very similar.

So, I wanted to make sure that you can distinctly differentiate between the 2 counter cultures and the 2 fridge kept cultures.  They have remained true in flavor profile other than the stinky odor, correct?

Jimmy, looking forward to your results.  Thank you as well for doing the experimenting and posting about it.

Chau

[TXCraig1]

So, I wanted to make sure that you can distinctly differentiate between the 2 counter cultures and the 2 fridge kept cultures.  They have remained true in flavor profile other than the stinky odor, correct?

Yes, that is absolutely correct.

CL

[JimmyG]

Now that all the starters are fully active, I decided to taste the starters this morning in between feedings. From what I can tell, the samples in closed environment/open container group are completely identical. I could not taste any differences in flavor nor noticed any differences in appearance between the original SD starter and the F&W mixture. Additionally, there was no difference between these two sample and the SD starter maintained in its own separate container. The only sample that remains different is the F&W mixture in the open environment/closed container group.The flavor of this sample and its activity remain distinct despite being fed from the same F&W mixture as the other samples. While I still have two more feedings to go, at this time I would feel confident in saying that SD starters can migrate in a humid environment to repopulate less established starters, however, once the starters are established, they do not change as long as regular feeding regiments are practiced. 

[Jackie Tran]

Jimmy, how long did it take for the 2 FW starters to take off?

[JimmyG]

Chau,
It took 2 days for the FW mixture in closed environment/open container group to show activity but the flavor was not well established at that time. It was near the 4 day mark that I begin noticing similarities in flavors between FW starter and the established SD starter. In contrast it took 4 days for the other FW mixture in its own separate container to takeoff but it only started to show  SD flavor characteristics in the last two days, so about 7 days out.  

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks jimmy.  Can you keep feeding the 2 FW in a closed environment for another 3-4 days to see about a possible takeover?  Also keep the original starter going separately to see if it will change given a bit more time.

Chau