Good, but a touch on the chewy side

[rgreenberg2000]

I just registered for this forum today, though I have lurked here off and on for a bit over a year.  Up until recently, I probably only made pizza at home a handful of times a year.  I have adopted bread, and specifically sourdough, as a new hobby, spending quite a bit of time on that over the last many weeks.  Of course, since I love to eat pizza, it was natural that while making all this dough (baking a couple times a week), my thoughts turned to sourdough pizza.

So, tonight was the first pie created using my starter that is about 1.5 months old at this point.  I have been using it effectively in artisanal type breads, and it's leavening strength is quite good.  Tonight's pie was a simple one with a basic sauce (canned tomatoes, salt, pepper, garlic pwdr, oregano, basil, sugar), cheese (what I had on hand) and diced ham.  I was unable to take pictures, but it turned out quite nicely......Great color on the crust both top and bottom, the right thickness on the crust to support the limited toppings, and it was nicely airy.  I didn't particularly detect much in the way of sour flavor, but I can play with both starter amounts as well as ferment time to adjust that.

The "flaw" (not really a flaw, just not what I want it to be) that I found was the crust itself was just a bit too chewy for me.  I'd like to adjust the next batch, but would love to get some insight into what variables will affect chewy vs. crispy.  Here are the details of my dough and process:

Dough:
Starter - 90g (100% hydration, white flour)
Flour - 290g (KA unbleached bread flour)
Water - 170g
Salt - 6g (Morton Kosher)
Oil - 3.5g
Hydration = 64%

Starter was built to size over a couple of refreshments, and then added to the rest of the ingredients.  All ingredients were mixed with the paddle attachment of my KA mixer, until they came together in a shaggy mass.  I then allowed the dough to rest for about 30 minutes to allow for thorough hydration.  After the rest, I used the dough hook attachment to knead with the mixer for about four minutes, and then kneaded by hand for another 7-10 minutes until the dough was smooth and developed.

At this point, the dough went into the fridge where I allowed it to bulk ferment for 2 days.  On pizza night, I pulled the dough out of the fridge and allowed it to come up toto temperature on the counter four about two hours.  The dough was then removed from it's bowl, and I began to shape it into a 15" round (started with my fingers pressing the dough into a circle, then stretched with my knuckles to get to the final size.  I had to pause and let the dough rest once to get to my final 15".  I dressed the dough first with a thin coating of olive oil and some salt, then a light layer of sauce, cheese, and the ham.

The dressed pie went onto a stone at just about the middle of my DCS electric oven that had been preheated to 550 degrees for about 45 minutes.  I still have trouble with the dough sticking to my peel, so I dressed the pie on parchment, and slid that into the oven, removing the parchment after about 6 minutes of baking.  The pie took about 12 minutes to finish up (yes, need to work on my oven configuration to migrate to a true NY pie, but good enough for now.)  Everything looked/tasted great, just want a little more crisp on the crust.

I thank you in advance for your input, and please let me know if there are any details I left out that would help you help me with my crispy quest.

Cheers,
Rich

[Don K]

IMO, your crust is chewy because you're kneading too much. After your 30 minute rest with the relatively high protein KABF, you should already have a pretty good start on gluten development. You shouldn't need to knead nearly that long.

[Jet_deck]

Im not saying this is the answer, but how many cracker/crispy recipes have you seen with 64% hydration?  It seems kinda high ?

[rgreenberg2000]

Col, you are probably right that it doesn't need as much kneading.  The rest and a few stretch/folds would probably be sufficient in combination with the two day ferment.  Will give that a shot.

J-D, I was thinking about the hydration as a place to start as well. I may drop it to 60 percent and see what that gets me.  I'm looking to go all the way to cracker, but move the needle a bit toward crisp from where I am now.

Thanks for the input folks.  Will report back after the next pizza night!

Rich

[dellavecchia]

Hello Rich - Welcome to the forum. Your entire workflow looks very good. If you want to get a crispier outside, lower the hydration a bit.

I would also suggest that you do not use a 2 day cold fermentation when using natural leavening. If you think about it terms of your bread making, would you put your bread in the fridge for 2 days to let it rise? At 31% starter, you might have a reasonable dough ready to go within 5-7 hours at room temp. You could retard the dough at the end of the bulk if you preferred as well.

I would skip the hand kneading for 10 minutes, and instead add just a few more minutes to your initial mix after the autolyse, and then bulk at room temp. If you tried hand kneading because the dough mass was too small for the mixer, you could instead do 2-3 hand stretch and folds one half hour apart. This will help reduce the chewiness. But at 31% starter, the acidity is working against you.

Let us know how your experimentation .

John

[rgreenberg2000]

John, thanks for chiming in.  Looks like two votes for hydration, so will give that a go.  You nailed it, by the way, I kneaded by hand because the dough ball was too small for the mixer.  Stretch and folds it will be next time.  I'll also look at a room temp ferment, then retard.  I have seen some people using extended fermentation for bread, so will play around with that variable some as well.

Good news is that all the experiments are tasty!!

Rich

[David Deas]

If you want to lower your chew, then lower your protein content.  Without having to adjust your current routine (which looks good to me), this is by far the easiest way to go.  Simply switch from KABF to KAAP.

[rgreenberg2000]

Aw, darn. Another experimental pie!  My wife will be thrilled to have another bag of flour gracing the pantry!!

Thanks for the suggestion.

Rich

[dellavecchia]

If you want to lower your chew, then lower your protein content.  Without having to adjust your current routine (which looks good to me), this is by far the easiest way to go.  Simply switch from KABF to KAAP.

I would also suggest lowering hydration, mix time, and fermentation time if the flour is switched to KAAP, which is a full point lower than KABF.

John

[Don K]

You can use KABF @ 64% and not have overly chewy crust. Just don't beat it to death. I use KABF and my recipe and workflow is similar to yours, except much less kneading. I get only a little chew (just right IMO). With the rest/autolyse you just don't need to knead as much.

My father-in-law eats my pizza and he has no teeth!

[TXCraig1]

My father-in-law eats my pizza and he has no teeth!

Back in my Hormel days, I was dong a seminar in Ashville, NC. After it was over, I let some workers come eat the leftovers. One guy told me that "this is good meat because I don't need to put my teeth in to eat it."

 

[rgreenberg2000]

Hey, all. Put some of your input to practice with a recent pie.  Liked the texture of the crust much better.

I did use a totally different dough formula (see post in NY style forum,) so definitely changed too many variables at once.

Thanks again for the advice!

Rich