Author Topic: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?  (Read 9486 times)

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Offline PizzaEater101

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Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« on: March 26, 2012, 07:20:28 PM »
This has nothing to do with taste but how do you get the spider web effect with the rim of the crust of NY style pizza?  I was eating at an overpriced pizza place called Tomato Pizza Pie Joint and although the pizza was good it was way overpriced so I won't go there again.  The cool thing was the spider web effect was in the rim of the pizza crust.   Too bad I did not take a photo of it but I only had my cell phone camera not the real digi cam which I think the cell takes inferior photos so I didn't do so.  If I ever brave back to that pizza joint to pay overpriced pizza just to take a real picture of it I'll post it.  Also would give me a chance to see if it's a fluke or they have that effect there all the time.  But other than that I'd never go there again.

Our fellow member Chickenparm, aka, Bill, has posted photos of serveral of his pies with the spiderweb effect.  I asked him how he achieved that and he's not sure. He has some theories but he's still not certain.  Maybe he can post his theory here on how it might be achieved.  I'd repeat it but I don't want to get wrong what he said. He could explain it.

But for those of you who know please explain. I did a search here at the forum but found no topic on this.  By the way the restaurant I went to that was overpriced I did a review in the review section if you care to read it.  


Thanks,


James


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2012, 10:17:02 PM »
Can you post a link to Bill's pictures. I don't know what you mean.

CL
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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2012, 12:16:11 AM »
Can you post a link to Bill's pictures. I don't know what you mean.

CL

TXCraig, I wish I could but he's posted links to Photo Bucket over various discussions but I'm not sure where those links are.  I'll send him a message and ask him to post some of those links to this discussion so we could see them.  I think Jackie Tran, aka, Chau also has posted pics like that too but not sure where the pics are.   Stay tuned, Bill will post some links soon I'm sure so we can see it.

Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2012, 12:56:31 AM »
Just send Bill a message.  Eventually he'll post some pics or links to pics of his spider webbed effect rim crust.  

I tried to find some pics on the internet of this but I can not find one at all.  I am sure pics are out there but my search terms were "spider web effect pizza crust" and similar.  Pics are probably out there but my terms are probably not the proper terms.  There are probably proper terms for this effect and if I knew the right terms I could find some pics and link them for you.

In short if you look at the inside of the pizza rim you'll see a lot of empty space but a lot of strands of dough material that look like spider webs that's why many of us call it the spider web effect.

I bet Peter, Chau, one of the Scotts, Norma, or Essen (Mike) would know the proper name and why it occurs.  It does not add anything to the pizza other than it looks pretty darn cool.

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2012, 04:00:11 AM »
Just send Bill a message.  Eventually he'll post some pics or links to pics of his spider webbed effect rim crust.  

I tried to find some pics on the internet of this but I can not find one at all.  I am sure pics are out there but my search terms were "spider web effect pizza crust" and similar.  Pics are probably out there but my terms are probably not the proper terms.  There are probably proper terms for this effect and if I knew the right terms I could find some pics and link them for you.

In short if you look at the inside of the pizza rim you'll see a lot of empty space but a lot of strands of dough material that look like spider webs that's why many of us call it the spider web effect.

I bet Peter, Chau, one of the Scotts, Norma, or Essen (Mike) would know the proper name and why it occurs.  It does not add anything to the pizza other than it looks pretty darn cool.

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2012, 06:54:16 AM »
James,

At Reply 25 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13625.msg154309.html#msg154309 and posts after that is where Bill posted about the "spider web" or "insane oven spring".

Norma

Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2012, 09:18:30 AM »
James,

At Reply 25 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13625.msg154309.html#msg154309 and posts after that is where Bill posted about the "spider web" or "insane oven spring".

Norma

Norma, thanks so much for the help with finding the discussion with Bill's pizza with the spider web effect.  Funny enough I see that I commented on his pizza in that discussion but I did not realize or remember that when I was starting this discussion.  Man those webs look cool.

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2012, 09:39:03 AM »
James, are you wanting to replicate this in light of the new spiderman movie coming out? JK.  I have gotten the effect before on multiple occassions, but don't know how or why it happens.  I suspect it has to do with cold or well fermented/digested doughs.  Also I have not seen it go all the way around the rim, but just in spots here and there, particularly inside the bigger bubbles.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 08:58:31 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2012, 10:20:23 AM »
James, are you wanting to replicate this in light of the new spiderman movie coming out? JK.  I have gotten the effect before on multiple occassions, but don't know how or why it happens.  I suspecr it has to do with cold or well fermented/digested doughs.  Also I have not seen it go all the way around the rim, but just in spots here and there.

Jakie, man you found me out!  Yep the new Spiderman inspired me to make spider webbed pizza! J/K.

I thought that pictures of spider web effect of pizza looks cool then I tried a slice of pizza at some overpriced pizza place in the Hollywood that was excellent but overpriced.  It had that spider web effect and thought it looked too cool.  I'll go there again and buy a piece even though overpriced just to see if they have that web again.  You said when you did it, it was only in certain places not the whole rim, so I am curious when I go there next time if I'm gonna get a piece like that or not. 


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2012, 01:34:23 PM »
I think you're talking about the crumb structure.

High hydration (60%+)
Long fermentation
High temperature bake.

All other things equal, these will help achieve the look you want.

This first picture was 62.0% hydration, 48 hours fermentation, baked at 875F
The second was 62.5% hydration, 42 hours fermentation, baked at 550F/convection

CL
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 01:43:14 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2012, 01:51:18 PM »
A little extra dough around the cornice helps too.
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2012, 02:14:54 PM »
Like this? If so, what Craig said, plus don't over-knead the dough. You want sufficient gluten to maintain structure but not too much to resist over spring.

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 02:53:24 PM »
In addition to Craig and Bill's advice, I would add that you need to be gentile in shaping your crust, particularly around the rim. Too much over handling will deflate a lot of the dough matrix you are trying to achieve.  Also, make sure your dough has had sufficient time to double before baking, especially if you reball your dough out of the fridge. 
However, if a big hole structure is what you're after, you can always attempt at Pizzarium or pizza bianca style pie. Plenty of "spider-webbing" in those pies with minimal effort due to the high water content (+75% hydration).
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« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 12:20:00 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 03:10:57 PM »
Chau,

Maybe it's hard to see, but in reply #11 above, isn't that the structure he is looking for?

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 03:15:54 PM »
I guess I am confused as well. If he is just looking for the little threads that occasionally come out in some of the larger holes, I would guess that is a residual effect during the baking process and it is by chance you find it during cutting. I am not sure there is a technique for obtaining that consistently throughout your rim. Although I do think the tips mentioned above may aid the chances of finding this phenomena within your rim.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 03:21:44 PM by JimmyG »
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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 03:20:50 PM »
It think it is those long sort of, I hate to say it, but snot looking strands of gluten.  It seems to me that many larger holed structures have this to some degree, but not to the extreme shown in the links Chau provided.

Don't forget Norma's "Baked Wet Gluten Ball"...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171526.html#msg171526
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 03:34:47 PM by parallei »


Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 03:24:30 PM »
Chau,

Maybe it's hard to see, but in reply #11 above, isn't that the structure he is looking for?

I don't think so Bill, but James can let us know.  The example he is referencing to in the first post about Bill's pizza can be seen in my previous post.  I'm positive the examples I listed are exactly what James has in mind.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 03:37:26 PM »
Isn't that weak, overfermented or overworked gluten?
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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2012, 05:53:26 PM »
I don't think so Bill, but James can let us know.  The example he is referencing to in the first post about Bill's pizza can be seen in my previous post.  I'm positive the examples I listed are exactly what James has in mind.

Yes, Chau is right. I am curious about how to get the spider web or strands of dough in the rim.  It's fascinating if you ask me.  Maybe it does not add to the taste but it is super cool.  Whether or not the others helped in my question I do appreciate your input.  I think some here did not understand what I meant but Chau is right about what I want. 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2012, 07:50:56 PM »
I think it's degraded gluten - specifically the gliadins - the part of the gluten matrix responsible for the viscous properties. I stand to be corrected, but I believe the enzymes naturally present in the flour primarily work on the gliadins. The glutenins which contribute the elasticity and strength are more prevelent. That's what this looks like to me. Some strings with strength (the remaining glutenins sticking together), but little of the viscous properties remaining. It looks a lot like what you see in a mature starter - espically one made from bakers yeast without the enzymes of a sourdough that really go to work on the gliadins and glutenins both leaving a very liquid result. That's my guess anyway. How it happens over night, I don't know. Overmixing maybe?

For example, this picture of Norma's starter from the link Chau posted above. It also looks like this picture from the "Beer Dough Wierdness" post which also questioned overmixing: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18212.msg176429.html#msg176429.
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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2012, 10:52:56 AM »
Craig, I really don't think this is degraded gluten.  Bill uses a bread machine, so it's difficult to ascertain how much mixing he's doing, but Chau gets this spider web effect as well, and I know, for a fact, that he doesn't overmix.

It's also definitely not overfermentation either, as Bouncer is very strong flour (14%) and overnight cold fermentation is just a drop in the bucket for a dough with this kind of strength.

I firmly believe that for every medium high to high gluten bromated flour, you can add the perfect amount of water, knead it for the perfect amount of time, ferment it for the perfect time at the perfect temp and bake it the perfect amount of time and this kind of extreme/holy grail oven spring can be achieved.  It's a perfect storm that, for Bill, involved some luck, but, for Chau, because he does it more frequently involves less luck, although he does have the added benefit of elevation.

What's most fascinating to me, personally, is that a few steps Bill took seemed to counter theories on what I previously believed to be responsible for ideal oven spring.  For instance, I believe he was at a 5 minute bake at the time of that photo. I still believe you can't achieve that kind of webbing at bake times higher than 5, but at the time of that photo, I was pretty sure it couldn't be done above 4.

I also seem to have different results using cold dough.  I know Tom's a fan of slightly chilled dough, and, in theory, colder dough should allow for more dissolved CO2, but I've haven't seen dramatically higher oven spring with my slightly chilled and/or cold dough experiments.

I was also a huge proponent of high-ish hydration for oven spring.  I don't know the exact specs for Bouncer, but, at 63% hydration (or possibly even 60%), he's most like a point or two below the absorption value.  I'm starting to experiment more with sub absorption value hydration now, and, so far, it's been a bit encouraging, but I don't think this, by itself is the silver bullet for webbing.

The one aspect that does seem to support my theories is bromate. Both Chau and Bill are achieving this webbing with a bromated flour, which I definitely feel is a player.

As I said, I don't think anything, by itself, is the silver bullet. It's a combination of factors, and everything's got to be dialed in perfectly.

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2012, 11:22:34 AM »
Here's one by member flyboy4ual

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15454.msg152178.html#msg152178

Caputo, well ferment dough, with cold ferementation.   I kind of agree with both of you guys Craig and Scott.  I do think it's a balance of long fermentation (dough degradation) along with an overall balance of gluten strength, plus enough heat.

It's a novelty.  I have gotten it on occassion but haven't noticed that the texture is superior to my other pies that don't have this.  Also it never happens throughout the entire rim, only in spots, particularly in large bubbles.  Which is spots of potential gluten weakening.

Chau

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2012, 11:36:39 AM »
I'm putting on my flak jacket for what I'm about to write...and please don't take it the wrong way, if you like it, that's great... notwithstanding, IMHO, a giant open hole in the crumb with some stringy gluten threads is a defect - not desirable. It's not crumb, it's air.

Chau gets giant, "holey grail"  :-D oven spring all the time, but with the exception of that one picture he posted (which I didn't remember) I don't remember seeing him get it with a "spider web" crumb. It's always beautifully structured and formed.

If not overworking or overfermenting, maybe it is just the random occurrence of a couple large bubbles next to eachother in the cornice? As they collapse internally, their walls pull in to form the webs? My guess is that there is more than one thing causing different effects with a similar appearance. If you look at all the pictures posted here, there definitely are differences.

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2012, 11:47:52 AM »
I'm putting on my flak jacket for what I'm about to write...and please don't take it the wrong way, if you like it, that's great... notwithstanding, IMHO, a giant open hole in the crumb with some stringy gluten threads is a defect - not desirable. It's not crumb, it's air.

Chau gets giant, "holey grail"  :-D oven spring all the time, but with the exception of that one picture he posted (which I didn't remember) I don't remember seeing him get it with a "spider web" crumb. It's always beautifully structured and formed.

I'm not necessarily saying that webbing is an inherently superior crumb, it's just that, for those of us infatuated with oven spring, it's hard to achieve, and, because it's such a challenge, it makes it more enticing than it actually is.  Like microblisters- I don't think a golden brown microblistered crust is inherently any superior to a non microblistered crust, but, because microblisters are so difficult to create consistently, they are a goal of mine.

I want to be able to understand webbing and recreate it at will, but just because I'll be able to achieve it doesn't mean that I will choose to incorporate it.

We're getting into a pretty subjective area here.  Some people love huge open crumbs, some don't.


 

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