Author Topic: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?  (Read 6852 times)

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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2012, 07:50:56 PM »
I think it's degraded gluten - specifically the gliadins - the part of the gluten matrix responsible for the viscous properties. I stand to be corrected, but I believe the enzymes naturally present in the flour primarily work on the gliadins. The glutenins which contribute the elasticity and strength are more prevelent. That's what this looks like to me. Some strings with strength (the remaining glutenins sticking together), but little of the viscous properties remaining. It looks a lot like what you see in a mature starter - espically one made from bakers yeast without the enzymes of a sourdough that really go to work on the gliadins and glutenins both leaving a very liquid result. That's my guess anyway. How it happens over night, I don't know. Overmixing maybe?

For example, this picture of Norma's starter from the link Chau posted above. It also looks like this picture from the "Beer Dough Wierdness" post which also questioned overmixing: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18212.msg176429.html#msg176429.
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scott123

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2012, 10:52:56 AM »
Craig, I really don't think this is degraded gluten.  Bill uses a bread machine, so it's difficult to ascertain how much mixing he's doing, but Chau gets this spider web effect as well, and I know, for a fact, that he doesn't overmix.

It's also definitely not overfermentation either, as Bouncer is very strong flour (14%) and overnight cold fermentation is just a drop in the bucket for a dough with this kind of strength.

I firmly believe that for every medium high to high gluten bromated flour, you can add the perfect amount of water, knead it for the perfect amount of time, ferment it for the perfect time at the perfect temp and bake it the perfect amount of time and this kind of extreme/holy grail oven spring can be achieved.  It's a perfect storm that, for Bill, involved some luck, but, for Chau, because he does it more frequently involves less luck, although he does have the added benefit of elevation.

What's most fascinating to me, personally, is that a few steps Bill took seemed to counter theories on what I previously believed to be responsible for ideal oven spring.  For instance, I believe he was at a 5 minute bake at the time of that photo. I still believe you can't achieve that kind of webbing at bake times higher than 5, but at the time of that photo, I was pretty sure it couldn't be done above 4.

I also seem to have different results using cold dough.  I know Tom's a fan of slightly chilled dough, and, in theory, colder dough should allow for more dissolved CO2, but I've haven't seen dramatically higher oven spring with my slightly chilled and/or cold dough experiments.

I was also a huge proponent of high-ish hydration for oven spring.  I don't know the exact specs for Bouncer, but, at 63% hydration (or possibly even 60%), he's most like a point or two below the absorption value.  I'm starting to experiment more with sub absorption value hydration now, and, so far, it's been a bit encouraging, but I don't think this, by itself is the silver bullet for webbing.

The one aspect that does seem to support my theories is bromate. Both Chau and Bill are achieving this webbing with a bromated flour, which I definitely feel is a player.

As I said, I don't think anything, by itself, is the silver bullet. It's a combination of factors, and everything's got to be dialed in perfectly.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2012, 11:22:34 AM »
Here's one by member flyboy4ual

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15454.msg152178.html#msg152178

Caputo, well ferment dough, with cold ferementation.   I kind of agree with both of you guys Craig and Scott.  I do think it's a balance of long fermentation (dough degradation) along with an overall balance of gluten strength, plus enough heat.

It's a novelty.  I have gotten it on occassion but haven't noticed that the texture is superior to my other pies that don't have this.  Also it never happens throughout the entire rim, only in spots, particularly in large bubbles.  Which is spots of potential gluten weakening.

Chau

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2012, 11:36:39 AM »
I'm putting on my flak jacket for what I'm about to write...and please don't take it the wrong way, if you like it, that's great... notwithstanding, IMHO, a giant open hole in the crumb with some stringy gluten threads is a defect - not desirable. It's not crumb, it's air.

Chau gets giant, "holey grail"  :-D oven spring all the time, but with the exception of that one picture he posted (which I didn't remember) I don't remember seeing him get it with a "spider web" crumb. It's always beautifully structured and formed.

If not overworking or overfermenting, maybe it is just the random occurrence of a couple large bubbles next to eachother in the cornice? As they collapse internally, their walls pull in to form the webs? My guess is that there is more than one thing causing different effects with a similar appearance. If you look at all the pictures posted here, there definitely are differences.

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scott123

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2012, 11:47:52 AM »
I'm putting on my flak jacket for what I'm about to write...and please don't take it the wrong way, if you like it, that's great... notwithstanding, IMHO, a giant open hole in the crumb with some stringy gluten threads is a defect - not desirable. It's not crumb, it's air.

Chau gets giant, "holey grail"  :-D oven spring all the time, but with the exception of that one picture he posted (which I didn't remember) I don't remember seeing him get it with a "spider web" crumb. It's always beautifully structured and formed.

I'm not necessarily saying that webbing is an inherently superior crumb, it's just that, for those of us infatuated with oven spring, it's hard to achieve, and, because it's such a challenge, it makes it more enticing than it actually is.  Like microblisters- I don't think a golden brown microblistered crust is inherently any superior to a non microblistered crust, but, because microblisters are so difficult to create consistently, they are a goal of mine.

I want to be able to understand webbing and recreate it at will, but just because I'll be able to achieve it doesn't mean that I will choose to incorporate it.

We're getting into a pretty subjective area here.  Some people love huge open crumbs, some don't.

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2012, 12:01:01 PM »
It's a novelty.  I have gotten it on occassion but haven't noticed that the texture is superior to my other pies that don't have this.  Also it never happens throughout the entire rim, only in spots, particularly in large bubbles.

Every crust has the potential for large isolated bubbles that occur in various areas of the rim (depending on whether or not you pop them during stretching), but the examples I'm seeing here have large bubbles in additional to larger secondary bubbles. The bubbles that surround the freakishly large isolated bubbles are usually indicative of the crumb of the majority of the rim. It's these secondary bubbles that are creating the webbing effect. If you look at the photo, you can take away the really large bubble, and you'd still have webbing.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2012, 12:09:00 PM »
How can it not have something to do with weak gluten?
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2012, 12:10:03 PM »
You see that look in a starter. What better exemplifies degraded gluten?
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scott123

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2012, 12:30:42 PM »
Craig, these are just bigger bubbles. A bigger bubble doesn't denote a weaker or a degraded bubble.

Plus, like I said, there's nothing that Bill is doing with this dough that would compromise the gluten in any way.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2012, 01:00:07 PM »
Hi guys,

I thought i'd chime in on this matter.  I am no expert pizza maker but i have created many spiderwebs in my end crust.  I get it when i have noticable air bubbles in my rim when forming the skin.  When i do not pop them i get the webbing.  Hope this info helps.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2012, 01:11:13 PM »
Hi guys,

I thought i'd chime in on this matter.  I am no expert pizza maker but i have created many spiderwebs in my end crust.  I get it when i have noticable air bubbles in my rim when forming the skin.  When i do not pop them i get the webbing.  Hope this info helps.

Can you post your typical fermentation protocol, type of flour, hydration, amount and type of yeast?

Also pictures of your spiderwebs please.

Online norma427

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2012, 01:14:35 PM »
I also had some pies made yesterday with sort of a web (spider) effect, although they really werenít pronounced, like some pies in this thread.  There really wasnít anything different with the dough or bake.  I sure donít know, but tend to agree with pythonic that they can be formed in the bake when there are many bubbles in the dough rim of the skin.

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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2012, 02:51:11 PM »
There have been some really great theories about this here.  I appreciate everyone's help.  If I go back to that overpriced pizza place I'll see if I can get a spider web effect in the slice that I buy.  I'll post pictures of it too.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2012, 06:18:01 PM »
Hi Folks,

I haven't been on that much,but you all pretty much posted for me what James was looking for.Thanks to all those for posting the links and etc.

Most of the time,like Scott said, it's just sheer luck.I don't really know why or how it happens,just I believe having pockets of air bubbles trapped in the rim sometimes has something to do with it.Then again,I have had bubbles that were hollow as well.A wetter dough seems to help too.

I had some more photos on my other PC I wanted to post,they are not in my photobucket account,and the hard drive crashed.So I have not been able to retrieve them yet.I had planned to transfer all my pics to a Disc,but kept putting it off.So if you got pics in your HD,do back them up or copy them!!
 :-[

James,I look forward to any experiments you turn up.Even if the rim doesn't look or blow up as much,put a camera close enough inside,it will enhance the image and look larger than it is,hence more detail.

Hope you all are enjoying the weather these days.Perfect for Pizza making!

 8)

-Bill



-Bill

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2012, 09:07:17 AM »
Every crust has the potential for large isolated bubbles that occur in various areas of the rim (depending on whether or not you pop them during stretching), but the examples I'm seeing here have large bubbles in additional to larger secondary bubbles. The bubbles that surround the freakishly large isolated bubbles are usually indicative of the crumb of the majority of the rim. It's these secondary bubbles that are creating the webbing effect. If you look at the photo, you can take away the really large bubble, and you'd still have webbing.

I made a loaf of bread yesterday and it had a huge bubble on the surface.  Inside that bubble?  You guessed it...spider webbing.   Also it only occurred in the bubble, no where else.  The overall gluten matrix in the bread is weak as evidence by the overall flatness of the loaf despite putting a lot of strength into the shaping of the loaf.  The hydration was too high for this flour and not enough strength was built into the dough.  Plus it also got a total of about 18 hours of cold fermentation.  

Pictures below...the bubble is quite large and the strands or webbing occurs throughout the entire  bubble althought the pictures don't show it really well.  Again, no other webbing thoughout any other part of the loaf.  

« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 09:09:48 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2012, 09:26:32 AM »
I would like to put my $.02 in on the spider web effect.  I theorize it is "destroyed" or weakened gluten.  Either by LAB or hydration.  I also contend that it occurs when the gluten was relatively strong at one point and then degraded.  Contrary to a barely developed dough/ gluten that became degraded...
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2012, 09:51:54 AM »
I would like to put my $.02 in on the spider web effect.  I theorize it is "destroyed" or weakened gluten.  Either by LAB or hydration.  I also contend that it occurs when the gluten was relatively strong at one point and then degraded.  Contrary to a barely developed dough/ gluten that became degraded...

Hmmm, you may be right.  Like I said, I don't know how or why, just that I tend to see it inside big bubbles in extended fermented doughs.  Big bubbles, as far as I can tell are either created during a later balling process from trapped air or they are created when gluten starts to break down and the gas bubbles start to meld together into a larger bubble.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2012, 10:17:16 AM »
I still think it is possible that there may be a couple different processes that are giving similar results. I agree that the big bubble theory is the most likely.

If big bubbles are the culprit, would you agree that very risen dough that is opened carefully to protect the cornice would be a logical way to try to achieve this if one was so inclined?

CL
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 10:18:57 AM by TXCraig1 »
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2012, 10:21:15 AM »
If big bubbles are the culprit, would you agree that very risen dough that is opened carefully to protect the cornice would be a logical way to try to achieve this if one was so inclined?

Perhaps also carefully pushing the bubbles in the cornice out near the edge?
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2012, 10:24:15 AM »
I still think it is possible that there may be a couple different processes that are giving similar results. I agree that the big bubble theory is the most likely.

If big bubbles are the culprit, would you agree that very risen dough that is opened carefully to protect the cornice would be a logical way to try to achieve this if one was so inclined?

CL

I can see that being the case.  I don't always get them but I do tend to use very risen doughs and I do open my skins carefully as to not disrupt the crumb network.  Most of the opening I do is off the peel after I push the air towards the cornice. 

Hi guys,

I thought i'd chime in on this matter.  I am no expert pizza maker but i have created many spiderwebs in my end crust.  I get it when i have noticable air bubbles in my rim when forming the skin.  When i do not pop them i get the webbing.  Hope this info helps.

Can you post your typical fermentation protocol, type of flour, hydration, amount and type of yeast?

Also pictures of your spiderwebs please.