Author Topic: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?  (Read 8400 times)

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scott123

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2012, 12:01:01 PM »
It's a novelty.  I have gotten it on occassion but haven't noticed that the texture is superior to my other pies that don't have this.  Also it never happens throughout the entire rim, only in spots, particularly in large bubbles.

Every crust has the potential for large isolated bubbles that occur in various areas of the rim (depending on whether or not you pop them during stretching), but the examples I'm seeing here have large bubbles in additional to larger secondary bubbles. The bubbles that surround the freakishly large isolated bubbles are usually indicative of the crumb of the majority of the rim. It's these secondary bubbles that are creating the webbing effect. If you look at the photo, you can take away the really large bubble, and you'd still have webbing.


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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2012, 12:09:00 PM »
How can it not have something to do with weak gluten?
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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2012, 12:10:03 PM »
You see that look in a starter. What better exemplifies degraded gluten?
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scott123

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2012, 12:30:42 PM »
Craig, these are just bigger bubbles. A bigger bubble doesn't denote a weaker or a degraded bubble.

Plus, like I said, there's nothing that Bill is doing with this dough that would compromise the gluten in any way.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2012, 01:00:07 PM »
Hi guys,

I thought i'd chime in on this matter.  I am no expert pizza maker but i have created many spiderwebs in my end crust.  I get it when i have noticable air bubbles in my rim when forming the skin.  When i do not pop them i get the webbing.  Hope this info helps.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2012, 01:11:13 PM »
Hi guys,

I thought i'd chime in on this matter.  I am no expert pizza maker but i have created many spiderwebs in my end crust.  I get it when i have noticable air bubbles in my rim when forming the skin.  When i do not pop them i get the webbing.  Hope this info helps.

Can you post your typical fermentation protocol, type of flour, hydration, amount and type of yeast?

Also pictures of your spiderwebs please.

Offline norma427

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2012, 01:14:35 PM »
I also had some pies made yesterday with sort of a web (spider) effect, although they really werenít pronounced, like some pies in this thread.  There really wasnít anything different with the dough or bake.  I sure donít know, but tend to agree with pythonic that they can be formed in the bake when there are many bubbles in the dough rim of the skin.

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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2012, 02:51:11 PM »
There have been some really great theories about this here.  I appreciate everyone's help.  If I go back to that overpriced pizza place I'll see if I can get a spider web effect in the slice that I buy.  I'll post pictures of it too.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2012, 06:18:01 PM »
Hi Folks,

I haven't been on that much,but you all pretty much posted for me what James was looking for.Thanks to all those for posting the links and etc.

Most of the time,like Scott said, it's just sheer luck.I don't really know why or how it happens,just I believe having pockets of air bubbles trapped in the rim sometimes has something to do with it.Then again,I have had bubbles that were hollow as well.A wetter dough seems to help too.

I had some more photos on my other PC I wanted to post,they are not in my photobucket account,and the hard drive crashed.So I have not been able to retrieve them yet.I had planned to transfer all my pics to a Disc,but kept putting it off.So if you got pics in your HD,do back them up or copy them!!
 :-[

James,I look forward to any experiments you turn up.Even if the rim doesn't look or blow up as much,put a camera close enough inside,it will enhance the image and look larger than it is,hence more detail.

Hope you all are enjoying the weather these days.Perfect for Pizza making!

 8)

-Bill



-Bill


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2012, 09:07:17 AM »
Every crust has the potential for large isolated bubbles that occur in various areas of the rim (depending on whether or not you pop them during stretching), but the examples I'm seeing here have large bubbles in additional to larger secondary bubbles. The bubbles that surround the freakishly large isolated bubbles are usually indicative of the crumb of the majority of the rim. It's these secondary bubbles that are creating the webbing effect. If you look at the photo, you can take away the really large bubble, and you'd still have webbing.

I made a loaf of bread yesterday and it had a huge bubble on the surface.  Inside that bubble?  You guessed it...spider webbing.   Also it only occurred in the bubble, no where else.  The overall gluten matrix in the bread is weak as evidence by the overall flatness of the loaf despite putting a lot of strength into the shaping of the loaf.  The hydration was too high for this flour and not enough strength was built into the dough.  Plus it also got a total of about 18 hours of cold fermentation.  

Pictures below...the bubble is quite large and the strands or webbing occurs throughout the entire  bubble althought the pictures don't show it really well.  Again, no other webbing thoughout any other part of the loaf.  

« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 09:09:48 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2012, 09:26:32 AM »
I would like to put my $.02 in on the spider web effect.  I theorize it is "destroyed" or weakened gluten.  Either by LAB or hydration.  I also contend that it occurs when the gluten was relatively strong at one point and then degraded.  Contrary to a barely developed dough/ gluten that became degraded...
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2012, 09:51:54 AM »
I would like to put my $.02 in on the spider web effect.  I theorize it is "destroyed" or weakened gluten.  Either by LAB or hydration.  I also contend that it occurs when the gluten was relatively strong at one point and then degraded.  Contrary to a barely developed dough/ gluten that became degraded...

Hmmm, you may be right.  Like I said, I don't know how or why, just that I tend to see it inside big bubbles in extended fermented doughs.  Big bubbles, as far as I can tell are either created during a later balling process from trapped air or they are created when gluten starts to break down and the gas bubbles start to meld together into a larger bubble.

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2012, 10:17:16 AM »
I still think it is possible that there may be a couple different processes that are giving similar results. I agree that the big bubble theory is the most likely.

If big bubbles are the culprit, would you agree that very risen dough that is opened carefully to protect the cornice would be a logical way to try to achieve this if one was so inclined?

CL
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 10:18:57 AM by TXCraig1 »
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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2012, 10:21:15 AM »
If big bubbles are the culprit, would you agree that very risen dough that is opened carefully to protect the cornice would be a logical way to try to achieve this if one was so inclined?

Perhaps also carefully pushing the bubbles in the cornice out near the edge?
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2012, 10:24:15 AM »
I still think it is possible that there may be a couple different processes that are giving similar results. I agree that the big bubble theory is the most likely.

If big bubbles are the culprit, would you agree that very risen dough that is opened carefully to protect the cornice would be a logical way to try to achieve this if one was so inclined?

CL

I can see that being the case.  I don't always get them but I do tend to use very risen doughs and I do open my skins carefully as to not disrupt the crumb network.  Most of the opening I do is off the peel after I push the air towards the cornice. 

Hi guys,

I thought i'd chime in on this matter.  I am no expert pizza maker but i have created many spiderwebs in my end crust.  I get it when i have noticable air bubbles in my rim when forming the skin.  When i do not pop them i get the webbing.  Hope this info helps.

Can you post your typical fermentation protocol, type of flour, hydration, amount and type of yeast?

Also pictures of your spiderwebs please.

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2012, 10:26:07 AM »
.  The hydration was too high for this flour and not enough strength was built into the dough.    

 I wish more people would read this and take heed, I think a lot of people get carried away with super high hydration doughs and then wonder why they don't turn out the way they hope.


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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2012, 10:46:15 AM »
David, this is a good point.  Hydration has it's benefits and limits as well.  Hydration really needs to be tailored to the type of flour, the specific type of crust one wants to make or a specific style of pizza, and the baking environment.   You can only push hydration to a certain point, then it just doesn't work after that.

This loaf of bread was made with 80/20 Guistos BF/high Performer flour with a hydration of 86%. It was part of a experiment between member WuCactus and myself on pushing the hydration limits in the Tartine Country Bread.  It was done deliberately.  I could have built more strength into the dough, but ended up not because I was pressed for time.  It's all in the process of learning the behaviors and characteristics of specific flours.  


scott123

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2012, 11:23:27 AM »
I made a loaf of bread yesterday and it had a huge bubble on the surface.  Inside that bubble?  You guessed it...spider webbing.   Also it only occurred in the bubble, no where else.

The webbing I referred to earlier is the non big bubble webbing that occurs throughout the rim. Take a look at the photo below.  You can see webbing outside the big bubble area. This is, imo, not isolated.

Also, I hate to sound like a broken record, but there's no way excessive hydration is a player here.  This crumb is a 63% hydration dough with a flour with 65% absorption value. If you want to argue that this phenomenon is caused by insufficient hydration, I'm open to that, but it's not caused by too much water, at least not in this example- which is the focus of this thread.

The red area is pretty much always going to be a possibility if you don't pop the big bubbles.  The  webbing you find in the blue area- webbing that occurs throughout the rim, that's hard to achieve.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 11:27:12 AM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2012, 12:14:45 PM »
Scott, I don't believe anyone ever said that they thought high hydration was a variable.  It may indirectly effect it by speeding up fermentation, but that would be about it.  

I see the point you are trying to make here, but the blue area you shaded is a bit misleading.  If you look at the original picture Bill posted, that area you highlighted is stringy and mostly air.  The white back ground is the inner wall of the inner crust.  You are looking through the webbing onto the inner wall of the crust giving the illusion that area is denser than it actually is.  If you consider that crust in it's entirety the webbing effect occurs right in or in the vicinity of large air pockets.  You can see where he cuts through the BIG bubble as the thin skin of the bubble is pinched and folded.  

But yes as you said, there are several layers of webbing in the photos, some denser than others.  Now if you go back and look at the examples I posted that belonged to Norma, myself, and Scott D.'s, you'll less of that separation.  It's just mostly outter wall crust and webbing inside.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18382.msg178660.html#msg178660

Flyboy4ual's spider hole
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15454.msg152178.html#msg152178
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 12:23:21 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2012, 12:27:29 PM »
Scott, I don't believe anyone ever said that they thought high hydration was a variable.  It may indirectly effect it by speeding up fermentation, but that would be about it.  

It might also help with rapid expansion which could be a contributor.
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scott123

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2012, 01:02:05 PM »
I see the point you are trying to make here, but the blue area you shaded is a bit misleading.  If you look at the original picture Bill posted, that area you highlighted is stringy and mostly air.  The white back ground is the inner wall of the inner crust.  You are looking through the webbing onto the inner wall of the crust giving the illusion that area is denser than it actually is.  If you consider that crust in it's entirety the webbing effect occurs right in or in the vicinity of large air pockets.  You can see where he cuts through the BIG bubble as the thin skin of the bubble is pinched and folded.

Let me get this straight, are you saying that the blue webbed area to the left of the bubble is actually still part of the bubble, but just a little more dense?  That is possible, but I still believe that webbing can be achieved in the non-big hole areas of the rim- that the standard crumb area can get webby.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2012, 01:14:36 PM »
Yes.  When I look at the original, particularly the zoomed out pic 3 and pic 4

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13625.msg154309.html#msg154309

I see that Bill cut through large air bubbles in both slices.  But yes, the blued area to the left of the empty centered is still mostly air but is just a bit denser looking because of the webbing.  If you bite through this section of the crust, you'll experience mostly crunchy outter crust followed by a collapse of the rim because it's mostly air inside.  But let's agree on this...in the areas without webbing, the crumb structure is still very aerated and looks every light.  Overall, these types of crust that produce webbing, the non webbed crumb looks light to me.

Here is a different angle of the same slice.  
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13625.msg154334.html#msg154334
If you look, it goes from outter crust to airy center, with very little transition in between.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 01:20:23 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2013, 03:59:06 PM »
This webbing is achieved in bread flour as well.  It's all I primarily use.  Are we in agreement this occurs from big bubbles in the crust?   Big bubble causing the top to burn faster and somehow create this web effect?

Nate
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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2013, 04:04:44 PM »
This webbing is achieved in bread flour as well.  It's all I primarily use.  Are we in agreement this occurs from big bubbles in the crust?   Big bubble causing the top to burn faster and somehow create this web effect?

I'm not sure we're in agreement with anything when it comes to this - starting with the the question "is it desirable" and going from there.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2013, 04:21:39 PM »
Can anyone guess where the webbing was in this pizza.   What differences can u see?

Nate
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