Author Topic: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?  (Read 5069 times)

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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2012, 10:26:07 AM »
.  The hydration was too high for this flour and not enough strength was built into the dough.    

 I wish more people would read this and take heed, I think a lot of people get carried away with super high hydration doughs and then wonder why they don't turn out the way they hope.




Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2012, 10:46:15 AM »
David, this is a good point.  Hydration has it's benefits and limits as well.  Hydration really needs to be tailored to the type of flour, the specific type of crust one wants to make or a specific style of pizza, and the baking environment.   You can only push hydration to a certain point, then it just doesn't work after that.

This loaf of bread was made with 80/20 Guistos BF/high Performer flour with a hydration of 86%. It was part of a experiment between member WuCactus and myself on pushing the hydration limits in the Tartine Country Bread.  It was done deliberately.  I could have built more strength into the dough, but ended up not because I was pressed for time.  It's all in the process of learning the behaviors and characteristics of specific flours.  

Offline scott123

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2012, 11:23:27 AM »
I made a loaf of bread yesterday and it had a huge bubble on the surface.  Inside that bubble?  You guessed it...spider webbing.   Also it only occurred in the bubble, no where else.

The webbing I referred to earlier is the non big bubble webbing that occurs throughout the rim. Take a look at the photo below.  You can see webbing outside the big bubble area. This is, imo, not isolated.

Also, I hate to sound like a broken record, but there's no way excessive hydration is a player here.  This crumb is a 63% hydration dough with a flour with 65% absorption value. If you want to argue that this phenomenon is caused by insufficient hydration, I'm open to that, but it's not caused by too much water, at least not in this example- which is the focus of this thread.

The red area is pretty much always going to be a possibility if you don't pop the big bubbles.  The  webbing you find in the blue area- webbing that occurs throughout the rim, that's hard to achieve.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 11:27:12 AM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2012, 12:14:45 PM »
Scott, I don't believe anyone ever said that they thought high hydration was a variable.  It may indirectly effect it by speeding up fermentation, but that would be about it.  

I see the point you are trying to make here, but the blue area you shaded is a bit misleading.  If you look at the original picture Bill posted, that area you highlighted is stringy and mostly air.  The white back ground is the inner wall of the inner crust.  You are looking through the webbing onto the inner wall of the crust giving the illusion that area is denser than it actually is.  If you consider that crust in it's entirety the webbing effect occurs right in or in the vicinity of large air pockets.  You can see where he cuts through the BIG bubble as the thin skin of the bubble is pinched and folded.  

But yes as you said, there are several layers of webbing in the photos, some denser than others.  Now if you go back and look at the examples I posted that belonged to Norma, myself, and Scott D.'s, you'll less of that separation.  It's just mostly outter wall crust and webbing inside.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18382.msg178660.html#msg178660

Flyboy4ual's spider hole
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15454.msg152178.html#msg152178
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 12:23:21 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2012, 12:27:29 PM »
Scott, I don't believe anyone ever said that they thought high hydration was a variable.  It may indirectly effect it by speeding up fermentation, but that would be about it.  

It might also help with rapid expansion which could be a contributor.
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Offline scott123

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2012, 01:02:05 PM »
I see the point you are trying to make here, but the blue area you shaded is a bit misleading.  If you look at the original picture Bill posted, that area you highlighted is stringy and mostly air.  The white back ground is the inner wall of the inner crust.  You are looking through the webbing onto the inner wall of the crust giving the illusion that area is denser than it actually is.  If you consider that crust in it's entirety the webbing effect occurs right in or in the vicinity of large air pockets.  You can see where he cuts through the BIG bubble as the thin skin of the bubble is pinched and folded.

Let me get this straight, are you saying that the blue webbed area to the left of the bubble is actually still part of the bubble, but just a little more dense?  That is possible, but I still believe that webbing can be achieved in the non-big hole areas of the rim- that the standard crumb area can get webby.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2012, 01:14:36 PM »
Yes.  When I look at the original, particularly the zoomed out pic 3 and pic 4

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13625.msg154309.html#msg154309

I see that Bill cut through large air bubbles in both slices.  But yes, the blued area to the left of the empty centered is still mostly air but is just a bit denser looking because of the webbing.  If you bite through this section of the crust, you'll experience mostly crunchy outter crust followed by a collapse of the rim because it's mostly air inside.  But let's agree on this...in the areas without webbing, the crumb structure is still very aerated and looks every light.  Overall, these types of crust that produce webbing, the non webbed crumb looks light to me.

Here is a different angle of the same slice.  
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13625.msg154334.html#msg154334
If you look, it goes from outter crust to airy center, with very little transition in between.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 01:20:23 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2013, 03:59:06 PM »
This webbing is achieved in bread flour as well.  It's all I primarily use.  Are we in agreement this occurs from big bubbles in the crust?   Big bubble causing the top to burn faster and somehow create this web effect?

Nate
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2013, 04:04:44 PM »
This webbing is achieved in bread flour as well.  It's all I primarily use.  Are we in agreement this occurs from big bubbles in the crust?   Big bubble causing the top to burn faster and somehow create this web effect?

I'm not sure we're in agreement with anything when it comes to this - starting with the the question "is it desirable" and going from there.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2013, 04:21:39 PM »
Can anyone guess where the webbing was in this pizza.   What differences can u see?

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.


Offline mkevenson

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2013, 04:26:56 PM »
Can anyone guess where the webbing was in this pizza.   What differences can u see?

Nate

1. in the nice brown puffy section of the cornice. 2. The olives are new?

Mark
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2013, 04:33:33 PM »
In the air bubble of the crust.  Difference from what?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2013, 04:37:13 PM »
Can anyone guess where the webbing was in this pizza.   What differences can u see?

Nate

I don't disagree you sometimes see it under big bubbles in the crust. The bubble didn't cause the webbing per-se. The question is what caused the bubble and what caused this bubble to have webbing and another not?
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2013, 02:20:23 AM »
1. in the nice brown puffy section of the cornice. 2. The olives are new?

Mark


Mark,

If you like Canadian bacon you have to try greenridge smoked Canadian bacon if u can find it and pair with pepp and olives if u like them.  The combination is excellent.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2013, 02:21:15 AM »
I don't disagree you sometimes see it under big bubbles in the crust. The bubble didn't cause the webbing per-se. The question is what caused the bubble and what caused this bubble to have webbing and another not?

Good question.  Would lehmann know?
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2013, 02:22:20 AM »
And what's up with the big air pocket and only 2-3 strands in there?  I'm sure you can relate.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline jeff v

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2013, 08:44:36 AM »
Isn't this just as simple as being a larger bubble in the dough? That bubble expands faster and burns easier. When it expands quicker the gluten strands either break or don't get pulled with it in the first place so it has a different structure than the rest of the crumb.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2013, 05:21:47 PM »
Isn't this just as simple as being a larger bubble in the dough? That bubble expands faster and burns easier. When it expands quicker the gluten strands either break or don't get pulled with it in the first place so it has a different structure than the rest of the crumb.

Sounds about right to me.  The bubble always burns quicker.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2013, 05:51:53 PM »
Has anyone seen this in a room temperature fermented dough?
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Spider Web Effect In Rim of Crust - How To Achieve?
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2013, 06:05:16 PM »
I'm sure I have. 


 

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