the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market

[norma427]

Norma,

It won't be necessary to retrieve the printout of the Lehmann one-day dough. From what you have said, it does not appear that the dough you have been testing with the Occident flour is a lot different from the Lehmann one-day dough. Maybe it is the KASL or the Kyrol flour and/or the increased amount of salt (Kosher) that is giving you the flavor that you prefer. Both of those flours have more protein, and more protein means more taste (and color as well).

One thought that occurred to me, however, is to consider using some semolina flour. That is not something that the early NYC pizza makers might have used, based solely on what I have read, but I found that semolina flour is a nice addition to a dough. I discovered that when I was making clones of the Papa Gino's pizzas as sold in the Northeast part of the country. The idea came from a former Papa Gino's worker who said that she thought that Papa Gino's was using semolina as part of a flour blend (it later turned out that PG was using bleached and bromated Spring King Spring Patent flour, and no semolina). In my case, I used 15% semolina and 85% King Arthur bread flour. I described my results at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404. One of the nice side benefits of that blend is that the leftover PG clone slices reheated beautifully, as I so noted at Reply 92 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71635.html#msg71635.

Another possible change for you to consider, whether you decide to use semolina or not, or whether you decide to switch to the KASL or Kyrol or not, is to reduce the amount of yeast and let the dough rest for about an hour or so before refrigerating. That should give the dough more fermentation byproducts that contribute to crust flavor. Using a longer temper time, if that is doable, would have a similar effect.

Peter

Peter,

I thought the dough formulation I have been trying with the Occident flour was similar to the Lehmann one day dough I have been experimenting with.  I sure don’t know, but seem to like the texture and crumb better with a higher protein flour and so does Steve and my taste testers.  My regular customers haven’t noticed any differences as of this week since changing over to the modified one day cold fermented Lehmann dough.

What kind of semolina flour did you use in your blend for your experiment for a Papa Gino‘s pizza?  I might try a blend of semolina with Occident flour or another lower protein flour. 

I could always use a lower the  amount of yeast and let the dough sit out to rest for better fermentation by- products for more flavor in the crust.

Maybe I will try both methods for next week.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma, my mouth is watering while looking at your pies.  We ordered from a pizza place rated "best in the area" last night, and the pie was just plain bad - a dry, thick crust, and clumps of melted american cheese across the top - oh my poor belly!   My entire family rated it poor.  Keep baking those pies.  We will be back!  Mark

Mark,

Thanks for your kind comment!  Sorry to hear that your pizza place rated “best in the area” wasn’t good. Come back to Root’s anytime you can!  Maybe you will be able to try some other experimental pies out on your next visit. 

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

Norma, I like Peter's suggestion of the durum flour. It does add both great taste and color (you may recall I mentioned that it is very possibly one of Jim Lahey's tricks for his commercial pizzas) However it can make for a stiff dough and tough crust and would likely require you to up your hydration a bit (as would whole wheat). I also find the addition of a little whole wheat quite compelling flavor wise and even sometimes the addition of some wheat germ. All of these additions make for more complex, desirable dough flavors. I have fiddled with adding a little rye as well but haven't liked that for pizza dough.

[Pete-zza]

What kind of semolina flour did you use in your blend for your experiment for a Papa Gino‘s pizza?  I might try a blend of semolina with Occident flour or another lower protein flour.  

Norma,

I use just a plain, generic semolina flour. There are a lot of Indian specialty food markets where I live and they all carry a generic semolina. That is what I buy. At the professional level, I suppose something like the General Mills semolina with the specs shown at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/SEMOLINA%20No%201%20ENR%203.pdf should be suitable. You will note from those specs that semolina has a much higher ash content than regular flours. It is 0.79%. For the KASL, it is 0.52%. I think that difference might be reflected in both the color and taste of the finished crust, most likely in a subtle way, not a night and day way. I think your current hydration value should be OK as is, but semolina has somewhat different absorption characteristics than most white flours so you may have to tweak the final hydration value you use.

I look forward to your results if you decide to give the semolina a try. If that doesn't do it for you, then maybe we can move on to either other flours or flavor enhancers like garlic powder, honey, etc.

Peter

[johnnydoubleu]

Norma,

I use just a plain, generic semolina flour. There are a lot of Indian specialty food markets where I live and they all carry a generic semolina. That is what I buy. At the professional level, I suppose something like the General Mills semolina with the specs shown at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/SEMOLINA%20No%201%20ENR%203.pdf should be suitable. You will note from those specs that semolina has a much higher ash content than regular flours. It is 0.79%. For the KASL, it is 0.52%. I think that difference might be reflected in both the color and taste of the finished crust, most likely in a subtle way, not a night and day way. I think your current hydration value should be OK as is, but semolina has somewhat different absorption characteristics than most white flours so you may have to tweak the final hydration value you use.

I look forward to your results if you decide to give the semolina a try. If that doesn't do it for you, then maybe we can move on to either other flours or flavor enhancers like garlic powder, honey, etc.

Peter

Peter, there is no doubt that depending on how much durum Norma might add she will find that she will want to add some water/up the hydration accordingly. I don't know why you have to say the same thing I basically said but a different way. It seems a deliberate way of not supporting my considerate advice. Thanks .

I have access to the GM "semolina" and have used it more or less interchangeabley with Golden Temple Durum flour (which is available at most of the small markets in my hood). I don't find one to be superior to the other so far, but I have only made tens of loaves of bread with it and a handful of square pies.

[Pete-zza]

I don't know why you have to say the same thing I basically said but a different way. It seems a deliberate way of not supporting my considerate advice. Thanks .

John,

As a Moderator, I read so many posts (all of them, almost 50,000 posts a year) and I do a fair amount of posting as well, that I don't always remember where I read what and who said what, and I can't afford the time to hunt down what others might have said. So, I focus on the subject matter at hand and try to be as complete and as comprehensive as I can within each post while it has my attention. It is all a matter of time allocation. I can assure you that I don't intentionally slight others.

Peter

[johnnydoubleu]

John,

As a Moderator, I read so many posts (all of them, almost 50,000 posts a year) and I do a fair amount of posting as well, that I don't always remember where I read what and who said what, and I can't afford the time to hunt down what others might have said. So, I focus on the subject matter at hand and try to be as complete and as comprehensive as I can within each post while it has my attention. It is all a matter of time allocation. I can assure you that I don't intentionally slight others.

Peter

I certainly appreciate your efforts and thoroughness. Thanks very much for doing such a good job with the forum!

[norma427]

Norma, I like Peter's suggestion of the durum flour. It does add both great taste and color (you may recall I mentioned that it is very possibly one of Jim Lahey's tricks for his commercial pizzas) However it can make for a stiff dough and tough crust and would likely require you to up your hydration a bit (as would whole wheat). I also find the addition of a little whole wheat quite compelling flavor wise and even sometimes the addition of some wheat germ. All of these additions make for more complex, desirable dough flavors. I have fiddled with adding a little rye as well but haven't liked that for pizza dough.

johnnydoubleu,

I recall the post you gave to me about using the durum flour at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17116.msg168722.html#msg168722 and using the durum flour with AP and upping the hydration to something like 70% plus.  I am not sure if I want to use that high of hydration for a market dough though.  I might try it sometime for an experiment.  I think your post in that reply was related to me trying to reproduce Jim Lahey’s pie, if I am not mistaken.  I am just trying for a NY style pizza in this thread and having the crust taste the best it can be.

Last week I made a pizza with durum flour and rye and wasn’t satisfied with that pizza.

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

Norma, I was merely agreeing with Peter that the addition of some durum flour can/could make for a better tasting dough and that might be a secret to why you liked the taste of the pie of Jim's you had (not that the style of finished pizza is at all similar of course). The hydration goes up as durum absorbs a lot of water but that entirely depends on how much you add. In the context of the NYC pizza, I might start by adding a small percentage like 3% and seeing how that goes. At the amount the hydration would not need to be bumped up that much.

I don't think rye belongs in pizza dough personally and I would attribute the fact that you didn't like that attempt much more to the use of rye than semolina. I much prefer a little whole wheat to rye, FWIW.

[Pete-zza]

I certainly appreciate your efforts and thoroughness. Thanks very much for doing such a good job with the forum!

John,

I just noticed your Reply 102 and can now see the source of the confusion. I had started to compose my reply to Norma on the semolina issue and while I was studying the GM specs on semolina and composing my reply, you had already posted. So, I never saw your post at that time. I apologize for having stepped on your lines. But I am happy to see that we are in agreement on the possibilities that semolina provides.

Peter

[johnnydoubleu]

No worries Peter. I know sometimes I can come across more strongly than I intend. It is safe to assume that I am almost always trying to make a legitimate contribution to push things forward. I know that is your MO and we are all so lucky to have your help!

[norma427]

Norma,

I use just a plain, generic semolina flour. There are a lot of Indian specialty food markets where I live and they all carry a generic semolina. That is what I buy. At the professional level, I suppose something like the General Mills semolina with the specs shown at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/SEMOLINA%20No%201%20ENR%203.pdf should be suitable. You will note from those specs that semolina has a much higher ash content than regular flours. It is 0.79%. For the KASL, it is 0.52%. I think that difference might be reflected in both the color and taste of the finished crust, most likely in a subtle way, not a night and day way. I think your current hydration value should be OK as is, but semolina has somewhat different absorption characteristics than most white flours so you may have to tweak the final hydration value you use.

I look forward to your results if you decide to give the semolina a try. If that doesn't do it for you, then maybe we can move on to either other flours or flavor enhancers like garlic powder, honey, etc.

Peter

Peter,

I don’t know if there are any Indian stores in my area that carry generic semolina.  I will have to look.  I think the only semolina’s I have are kind of granular, except for the durum I have from Bova Foods.  Did the semolina you used look like regular flour?

Steve and I were talking about trying garlic powder in the Lehmann dough yesterday.  I know he did use garlic powder in his Lehmann doughs for awhile, but hasn’t done it for awhile.  I don’t remember how much garlic powder he used, or if he even measured it.

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

Norma, the fine stuff you want that is really a flour is generally referred to as "durum" flour as what is typically called "semolina" is courser and sort of like little ball bearings.

What is the nearest city to you that has any SE Asian population? Harrisburg? This is the stuff I get at my local corner store:
http://bombaybazaarstore.com/images/products/1958.jpg

It works really well. As I mentioned above I've personally used the GM "semolina" flour and it is very similar to the Golden Temple. Whoever you can get All Trumps from should be able to order it for you.

I  will go to Lo Duca today and take a picture of the bag for you so we can know exactly how it is branded.

[norma427]

Norma, the fine stuff you want that is really a flour is generally referred to as "durum" flour as what is typically called "semolina" is courser and sort of like little ball bearings.

What is the nearest city to you that has any SE Asian population? Harrisburg? This is the stuff I get at my local corner store:
http://bombaybazaarstore.com/images/products/1958.jpg

It works really well. As I mentioned above I've personally used the GM "semolina" flour and it is very similar to the Golden Temple. Whoever you can get All Trumps from should be able to order it for you.

I  will go to Lo Duca today and take a picture of the bag for you so we can know exactly how it is branded.

johnnydoubleu,

I understand now your were agreeing with Peter, that the addition of some durum flour can or could make a better tasting dough and that might be the secret to the taste of the pie of Jim Lahey’s I liked so well.  I can understand the durum flours absorbs a lot of water.  I appreciate you mentioned to try 3% durum to start with.  In other threads being some Sicilian threads I was working on I always got durum semolina and other semolina’s confused.  This thread isn’t any different.  

I really don’t know what town near me has a SE Asian population, but maybe at the Chinese grocery store in Lancaster they might carry the kind of stuff they carry at your local corner store.  I haven’t been to the Chinese grocery store for a long while. I don’t think I want to purchase a big bag of GM semolina until I see how some works out in some experiments.  

That is kind of you to say you would go to Lo Duca today and take a picture of the bag so we know exactly how it is branded.   You really don’t have to do that.

Thanks for your help!

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

Also Norma, in that dough you didn't like with the rye and the semolina, was it the more coarse semolina (that is really for pasta not bread) or the fine durum semolina flour? If it was the former, no wonder it didn't come out well! Def not something I would use in pizza dough.

A Chinese market is fairly different from an "Indian" one though there is some overlap. I wouldn't think they would have chappati flour but they might. I could always send you some. I have 10lbs or so sitting around at the moment. Made some bread with it yesterday: http://twitpic.com/98baw7/

Though the pic isn't that great, one can clearly see the nice creamy color that comes from the addition of some durum flour.

It is kinda funny -- the "Indian" style flour is actually made from Canadian wheat!

[Pete-zza]

John and Norma,

When I made my Papa Gino's clones with the semolina, I used 15% semolina, which was somewhat an arbitrary number but within the 25% outer limit that Tom Lehmann typically recommends. However, I once had a pizza in Massachusetts where the pizza operator told me that he used about 50% semolina, but I believe that was by volume rather than by weight. In that instance, there were some leftover slices. However, they did not reheat well. The crusts upon reheating were like leather and not particularly enjoyable. I haven't priced semolina recently, but my recollection is that it was quite a bit more than the price of flour. So, that might be a factor to keep in mind.

On the matter of the hydration, when I used 15% semolina and 85% KABF, the hydration I used was around 60-61%.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I don’t know if there are any Indian stores in my area that carry generic semolina.  I will have to look.  I think the only semolina’s I have are kind of granular, except for the durum I have from Bova Foods.  Did the semolina you used look like regular flour?

Norma,

Over the years I have gone to different Indian foodstores to get semolina and the bags always just say semolina, without any explanation. I recall in one case that the semolina was from India. The brand names were always Indian names.

The semolina is typically quite fine but not as fine as flour. And it is a distinct yellow. Most of the time, I used the semolina as a bench/peel flour or as part of the Papa John's Dustinator clone.

Peter

[norma427]

Also Norma, in that dough you didn't like with the rye and the semolina, was it the more coarse semolina (that is really for pasta not bread) or the fine durum semolina flour? If it was the former, no wonder it didn't come out well! Def not something I would use in pizza dough.

A Chinese market is fairly different from an "Indian" one though there is some overlap. I wouldn't think they would have chappati flour but they might. I could always send you some. I have 10lbs or so sitting around at the moment. Made some bread with it yesterday: http://twitpic.com/98baw7/

Though the pic isn't that great, one can clearly see the nice creamy color that comes from the addition of some durum flour.

It is kinda funny -- the "Indian" style flour is actually made from Canadian wheat!

John,

The durum flour I used in the dough last week was the fine durum flour from Bova that I am providing a picture of below.  I also used that same durum flour in the Pizzarium thread and other threads.

I see your bread does clearly look like it has a nice creamy color.  You don’t have to send me any of your durum flour, but I appreciate saying you would.   I didn’t know the Indian flour is made from Canadian wheat.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I see in your Papa Gino’s clones you used 15% semolina.  I will have to look to see if any stores near me sell the Indian semolina.  I don’t know of any Indian stores near me that I know of.

Norma

[JimmyG]

Norma,
Just to throw in my two cents (I know you are getting bombarded with advice today), stick with your durum and forget about the semolina. From my own experiences with both durum and semolina, they have very similar flavors. In fact, I would say that the defining factor in flavor is the miller and commercial varieties of durum wheat being milled at that particular mil site.  Generally speaking, durum has a smaller particle size than semolina. The larger particle size of the semolina will significantly hinder your oven spring, leading to a dense and chewy crust, as well as increasing your chances of developing tears in your final dough as you are shaping your crust. I know for myself, using semolina was a big problem when I started to recreate "Sicily" Sicilian doughs. I never truly amended the problem until I made the switch to patent durum flour. With a only few exceptions, I exclusively use semolina for pasta or as bench flour and patent durum flour in bread and pizza dough. In any case, good luck with which ever direction you take and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.