Author Topic: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market  (Read 49158 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #120 on: April 11, 2012, 04:25:26 PM »
Jim,

We're you using a lot of semolina for your doughs?

Peter


Offline JimmyG

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #121 on: April 11, 2012, 04:32:22 PM »
Peter,
Yes I was 100% to 50% semolina by bakers percent. Now that I am using the durum, I can easily push 75% durum and 25% AP given that my total hydration is between 68-72%. 100% durum is still hit and miss for me. However, I should note that I never truly had great success with semolina, even at smaller amounts like Norma is wanting to add in. For me, it preformed too much like medium rye or a course whole whole.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 04:35:43 PM by JimmyG »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #122 on: April 11, 2012, 04:40:20 PM »
Jim,

I almost never see durum in the markets near me, although I know General Mills sells it to professionals, but how does the durum stack up on a cost basis with semolina and regular white flour? Also, do you know how the durum holds up in storage? I occasionally have to discard semolina because it develops an off odor if not used fast enough.

As a frame of reference, this afternoon, I found an empty semolina bag and the price tag on it is $2.19 for two pounds.

Peter

Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #123 on: April 11, 2012, 04:45:28 PM »
Jimmy's lack of desirable results with "semolina" vs durum is my main point. Semolina is waaay to tough and chewy, IMO for pizza. Similar items, totally different results.

I am about to run some errands, take a pic of Lo Duca's commercial durum flour (IIRC, the one Peter mentioned -- labeled at Semolina but quite fine) and also take a pic and price of the Golden Temple. I am not keen on Golden Temple per se, but at least in my area of Brooklyn it is common enough to find it at a regular, pretty crappy NYC style supermarket. However that is a result of the demographics of my hood.

Sorry if I "bombarded" you today Norma -- just trying to help! :) Jimmy actually turned me on to adding a little durum to my pizza dough and I def think it works in some applications and has a nice smell, taste and color.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #124 on: April 11, 2012, 04:52:08 PM »
John,

You can't overwhelm Norma. She is as tough as they come and you can throw as much as you can at her and she will be able to handle it :-D. In fact, if you aren't careful, she will come back at you with a whole bunch of questions.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #125 on: April 11, 2012, 05:45:31 PM »
Norma,
Just to throw in my two cents (I know you are getting bombarded with advice today), stick with your durum and forget about the semolina. From my own experiences with both durum and semolina, they have very similar flavors. In fact, I would say that the defining factor in flavor is the miller and commercial varieties of durum wheat being milled at that particular mil site.  Generally speaking, durum has a smaller particle size than semolina. The larger particle size of the semolina will significantly hinder your oven spring, leading to a dense and chewy crust, as well as increasing your chances of developing tears in your final dough as you are shaping your crust. I know for myself, using semolina was a big problem when I started to recreate "Sicily" Sicilian doughs. I never truly amended the problem until I made the switch to patent durum flour. With a only few exceptions, I exclusively use semolina for pasta or as bench flour and patent durum flour in bread and pizza dough. In any case, good luck with which ever direction you take and I look forward to seeing what you come up with. 


Jim,

Don’t worry about me being bombarded with advice today, I sure can handle it.  :-D  With everyone trying to help me make a better dough for market, eventually I should achieve what I am trying to do.   ;D

I know the information here on the forum regarding semolina or durum flour is sometimes confusing to me, but since you have tried patent durum flour (which is I guess like I have), and liked it better than semolina, maybe that is the near route I will take.  I might call Bova tomorrow to see really what brand of durum flour I have.  The durum flour I have is really fine, but only comes in a brown bag at Bova’s regular store, so I don’t really know the brand.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #126 on: April 11, 2012, 05:51:53 PM »
Jimmy's lack of desirable results with "semolina" vs durum is my main point. Semolina is waaay to tough and chewy, IMO for pizza. Similar items, totally different results.

I am about to run some errands, take a pic of Lo Duca's commercial durum flour (IIRC, the one Peter mentioned -- labeled at Semolina but quite fine) and also take a pic and price of the Golden Temple. I am not keen on Golden Temple per se, but at least in my area of Brooklyn it is common enough to find it at a regular, pretty crappy NYC style supermarket. However that is a result of the demographics of my hood.

Sorry if I "bombarded" you today Norma -- just trying to help! :) Jimmy actually turned me on to adding a little durum to my pizza dough and I def think it works in some applications and has a nice smell, taste and color.

John,

Thanks so much for offering to take a pictures of Lo Duca’s commercial durum flour and also the picture and price of the Golden Temple semolina.  I also appreciate your help!   :)

Just as I told Jim, I don’t mind being bombarded.  Everyone learns in the end.  It is just another way to learn a new way of making pizza, which is always good.  :pizza:

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #127 on: April 11, 2012, 05:55:44 PM »
John,

You can't overwhelm Norma. She is as tough as they come and you can throw as much as you can at her and she will be able to handle it :-D. In fact, if you aren't careful, she will come back at you with a whole bunch of questions.

Peter

Peter,

You are sure correct, that I don’t think anyone can overwhelm me.  I guess it comes with getting tougher with aging.  You sure do know how many questions I can ask.  :-D

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #128 on: April 11, 2012, 06:09:33 PM »
Norma,

Maybe this post can shed some light on the differences between durum flour and semolina: Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg90128/topicseen.html#msg90128. One thing to keep in mind is that durum flour, while high in protein, apparently does not have a lot of gluten, as noted in the Wikipedia entry on durum flour.

I also did a quick check on pricing for durum flour at retail. It is sold for $7.95 for three pounds at King Arthur (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-extra-fancy-durum-flour-3-lb) and for $2 a pound at Barry Farm Foods (http://www.barryfarm.com/flours.htm). I'm sure there are many other sources.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #129 on: April 11, 2012, 06:33:13 PM »
Norma,

Maybe this post can shed some light on the differences between durum flour and semolina: Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg90128/topicseen.html#msg90128. One thing to keep in mind is that durum flour, while high in protein, apparently does not have a lot of gluten, as noted in the Wikipedia entry on durum flour.

I also did a quick check on pricing for durum flour at retail. It is sold for $7.95 for three pounds at King Arthur (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-extra-fancy-durum-flour-3-lb) and for $2 a pound at Barry Farm Foods (http://www.barryfarm.com/flours.htm). I'm sure there are many other sources.

Peter





Peter,

Thanks for the link, I recall that post.  Matt also had a good post for me when I was trying to understand semolina at Reply 157 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg89522.html#msg89522  Even with all the experiments I have tried, I still find semolina or patent durum flour interesting.  There is also a picture of the durum patent flour I tried for the Fairmont Bagel pizza at Reply 37 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12463.msg118838.html#msg118838  That pizza did turn out well in my opinion.  I also posted on the durum patent flour Warren gave me at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10267.msg90185.html#msg90185   I am not sure how accurate my wet gluten mass test was on the patent durum flour, but posted those results at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg176792.html#msg176792  It seems to me like those results for the patent durum flour would make it in bread flour territory.

Thanks for checking on prices for durum flour at retail prices.

Norma
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Offline JimmyG

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #130 on: April 11, 2012, 06:58:24 PM »
Peter,
I have been using Heartland Mil semolina and durum patent flour http://www.heartlandmill.com/product.html. The price you are paying sounds about right. I purchase both flours from a local bakery and they charge me $2.00lb. They also carry it at our food coop in Lawrence for $2.25lb, but I stopped purchasing it from them as they were not turning the flour over fast enough. I too have also found that semolina or durum can pick up off odors and flavors over time. Therefore, I typically only buy about 2.5lbs at a time and will store it in a Tupperware container in the freezer until needed.

JW,
Glad to have you on board the durum band wagon.

Norma,
If you want one more place to buy from,  :-\ you can purchase either flour directly from Heartland Mils http://s55352.storefront-solutions.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=3.  $4.22 for 2lbs or $40 for 25lbs.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #131 on: April 11, 2012, 07:30:25 PM »
Norma,

Tom Lehmann talks about the use of semolina/durum in pizza dough at pages 22-23 at http://pmq.com/digital/200810/22.html, where you will note that Tom recommends using no more than 25-30%.
 
Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #132 on: April 11, 2012, 08:21:40 PM »

Norma,
If you want one more place to buy from,  :-\ you can purchase either flour directly from Heartland Mils http://s55352.storefront-solutions.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=3.  $4.22 for 2lbs or $40 for 25lbs.



Jim,

Thanks for the link from Heartland Mill for the durum patent flour for me or anyone that might want to purchase any durum patent flour.  :) I will wait and see if I can find out what kind of durum patent flour I have before I try to purchase any. 

Norma
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Offline JimmyG

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #133 on: April 11, 2012, 08:27:39 PM »
Quote
Norma,

Tom Lehmann talks about the use of semolina/durum in pizza dough at pages 22-23 at http://pmq.com/digital/200810/22.html, where you will note that Tom recommends using no more than 25-30%.
 
Peter


Peter and Norma,
I completely agree on this point and I would be even more conservative to say that no more than 5-10% of either durum or semolina should be added to a standard NY dough formula. Anything more than this and the effect of the durum wheat will begin to modify your dough formula.
It should be noted that my motivations for creating the Sicilia style dough was due to summers spent in Sicily and recreating my boyhood memories of regional pizza favorites such as the rianata, schiaciata, 'mpanata and tabisca. All of these pizzas traditional have semolina/durum as major components of the dough recipe.  As I quickly found out when trying to recreate these recipes, it requires completely different methods to produce a quality pie out of this grain. I personally would not recommend that any one should push more than 10% without some alterations to their dough formula to achieve optimal results.
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #134 on: April 11, 2012, 08:35:17 PM »
Norma,

Tom Lehmann talks about the use of semolina/durum in pizza dough at pages 22-23 at http://pmq.com/digital/200810/22.html, where you will note that Tom recommends using no more than 25-30%.
 
Peter


Peter,

Thank you for finding the link from Tom Lehmann about durum patent semolina.  I see Tom also says to keep in mind that semolina flour will fully hydrate a bit more slowly than regular white flour and it means that the dough may at first feel a little sticky or tacky shortly after mixing, but will generally disappear about 10 to 15 minutes after the dough comes off the hook. 

Here comes more questions.  What do you think should be the hydration for the next attempt and should I still use your Papa Gino’s clone formulation with the kind of durum patent flour I have at home, or don‘t you think I should try out the Papa Gino‘s clone with the kind of durum patent flour I have?

Norma
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Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #135 on: April 11, 2012, 08:43:54 PM »
Jimmy, that is why I suggested starting very low (3% or so) and iterating up. I can't imagine using the amounts Tom mentions in any conventional pizza or anything over 10% for that matter.

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #136 on: April 11, 2012, 08:45:45 PM »
Peter and Norma,
I completely agree on this point and I would be even more conservative to say that no more than 5-10% of either durum or semolina should be added to a standard NY dough formula. Anything more than this and the effect of the durum wheat will begin to modify your dough formula.
It should be noted that my motivations for creating the Sicilia style dough was due to summers spent in Sicily and recreating my boyhood memories of regional pizza favorites such as the rianata, schiaciata, 'mpanata and tabisca. All of these pizzas traditional have semolina/durum as major components of the dough recipe.  As I quickly found out when trying to recreate these recipes, it requires completely different methods to produce a quality pie out of this grain. I personally would not recommend that any one should push more than 10% without some alterations to their dough formula to achieve optimal results.

Jim,

Thanks so much for your suggestion not to use more the 5-10% of either durum or semolina in a standard NY dough formula.   :)

It is very interesting what your motivations were for creating the Sicilia style dough.  I never hear of rianata, ‘mpanata or tabisca.  Did you ever post pictures of any of those pies on Slice?  Those names are sure different to my ears, but sound great.  :) It’s great to have you onboard this thread to help give us directions on the amount of durum or semolina to try.  Did you ever use your durum patent flours in a standard NY formulation?

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #137 on: April 11, 2012, 08:47:30 PM »
Jimmy, that is why I suggested starting very low (3% or so) and iterating up. I can't imagine using the amounts Tom mentions in any conventional pizza or anything over 10% for that matter.

John,

You were onboard all the time!  ;D  Thanks also for you help!  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #138 on: April 11, 2012, 08:50:40 PM »
Here comes more questions.  What do you think should be the hydration for the next attempt and should I still use your Papa Gino’s clone formulation with the kind of durum patent flour I have at home, or don‘t you think I should try out the Papa Gino‘s clone with the kind of durum patent flour I have?

Norma,

Papa Gino's has never described their pizza as being a New York style pizza, so I don't think that I would use their pizza as a benchmark. I think I would just stick with your last dough formulation and replace part of the flour with the durum flour. That way we will not be changing too many variables. As I previously noted, when I used 15% semolina for a PG clone I do not recall experiencing any problems with the hydration, even though I was aware of the difference in absorption characteristics of semolina versus regular flour and that some tweaking of the hydration might be necessary. My recollection is that you have been using 63% hydration. If that is correct, you might be OK.

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #139 on: April 11, 2012, 08:53:14 PM »
So the durum flour I got from the Lo Duca bros. and have been using in some breads and pizzas (with quite a bit of success) is ConAgra King Midas Extra Fancy Patent Durum Flour.

The two "Indian" branded durum flours (Golden Temple Durum Atta Flour and Maya Durum Atta Flour) available at my corner store retail for $2 per lb in 2.5lb bags and .60 - .70 cents per lb in 20lb bags
(or so the clerk told me -- now that I search the net, I see that price seems incredibly low/to good to be true). Sal Lo Duca didn't know off hand how much his 100lb bag was but he guessed it was roughly about $1 per lb wholesale. So the Indian flour may be cheaper even comparing retail to wholesale but it doesn't say "patent" flour on it like the ConAgra stuff so it may very well be a different grade even though it looks, smells, tastes and performs very similarly.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 09:25:40 PM by johnnydoubleu »