Author Topic: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market  (Read 49917 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #240 on: May 01, 2012, 09:25:16 PM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #241 on: May 01, 2012, 09:26:14 PM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #242 on: May 01, 2012, 09:27:03 PM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #243 on: May 01, 2012, 09:27:52 PM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #244 on: May 01, 2012, 09:29:07 PM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #245 on: May 01, 2012, 09:29:53 PM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #246 on: May 01, 2012, 09:30:53 PM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #247 on: May 01, 2012, 09:31:41 PM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #248 on: May 01, 2012, 09:32:38 PM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #249 on: May 01, 2012, 10:31:17 PM »
I have to tell kind of a funny story about what happened today.  I had made the Sicilian pie and also the last pie I had posted about.  A man came along with another man and the one man said the regular pizzas looked good and purchased a slice.  He came back a little later and said that the slice was really good.  He then proceeded to buy another slice.  The man that was with him was interested in the Sicilian pizza.  He wanted a slice of it.  The first man told me the man that was getting the Sicilian slice owns a pizzeria and his pizzas sure werenít as good as mine.  They both came back and wanted more pizza and then the one man that owns the pizzeria bought a slice of the pie that I just posted about and really liked that slice.  Both men then told me there were originally from Brooklyn, NY and nobody makes pies as good in Brooklyn as mine.  The one man said they are going to pack me up and take me to Brooklyn, NY to help them open a pizzeria.  I sure had to chuckle to myself, but they did make me feel good.  Both men were Italians.  Goes to show what pizzamaking.com can do for anyone.  :-D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #250 on: May 02, 2012, 08:11:55 AM »
The attempt with the preferment NY style didnít turn out as good with the GM Full Strength flour.  It sure is a mystery to me in that the dough ball was made about the same, was left to cold ferment for the same amount of time and left to warm-up for almost the same amount of time why this attempt didnít get anything like the last attempt I posted about.  The dough looked the same, felt the same and opened easily.  Sauce and cheese were only applied for this attempt.  Steve slid this pie into the oven and he said something hung-up on the peel that made this pie not round.  The dough skin didnít feel to me like it was sticking on the peel at all.  This pizza had a much more denser rim, didnít have the same oven spring, and did brown differently on the bottom crust.  The crumb was still tender, but not as tender as the last attempt yesterday.  I didnít use as much rice flour on the peel for this attempt.  Ahhh, the mysteries of pizza.  :-D

Norma 
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #251 on: May 02, 2012, 08:13:32 AM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #252 on: May 02, 2012, 08:14:28 AM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #253 on: May 02, 2012, 08:15:29 AM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #254 on: May 02, 2012, 08:20:07 AM »
The pizza made with the increased hydration of 63% and the GM Full Strength flour turn out very good. 

Norma,

I'm glad to hear that your GM Full Strength Lehmann dough using the 63% hydration worked out well for you. Can you compare this version with your prior one-day Lehmann doughs and also tell us any areas where you would like to improve the latest version if you decide you want to proceed with that version?

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #255 on: May 02, 2012, 08:53:08 AM »
The attempt with the preferment NY style didnít turn out as good with the GM Full Strength flour.  It sure is a mystery to me in that the dough ball was made about the same, was left to cold ferment for the same amount of time and left to warm-up for almost the same amount of time why this attempt didnít get anything like the last attempt I posted about.  The dough looked the same, felt the same and opened easily.

Norma,

Preferments add an extra layer or two of complexity to a straight cold-fermented dough, because of the more complicated biochemistry, which makes it difficult to diagnose problems that arise with their use. And what works in one scenario (amount of preferment and related fermentation methods and times) is likely not to work in another scenario where you alter one or more of the variables. Also, in your case, you prefermented less of the total formula flour than the Lehmann preferment dough formulation you referenced. That alone would alter the fermentation schedule. To achieve the desired results, you would have to redesign the preferment dough formulation to meet your requirements and conduct tests to prove out the formulation on a consistent basis. I suspect that this is not the direction you want to go at this point, especially since you already have a good preferment Lehmann dough formulation to fall back on if necessary if you can't come up with a straight one-day cold fermented Lehmann dough with which you are happy and feel will satisfy your customers at market.

Peter




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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #256 on: May 02, 2012, 09:15:54 AM »
Norma,

I'm glad to hear that your GM Full Strength Lehmann dough using the 63% hydration worked out well for you. Can you compare this version with your prior one-day Lehmann doughs and also tell us any areas where you would like to improve the latest version if you decide you want to proceed with that version?

Peter

Peter,

To answer your question how the formulation using the GM Full Strength Lehmann dough with the 63% hydration compared with the other doughs I have made on this thread, I would say that I liked this iteration  the best in how the crust tasted, how tender the crumb was, how much oven spring the rim had and overall the appearance of the pizza.  What I wonder is if I should drop the hydration by maybe 1% and not room temperature proof as long in the next attempt or do you have other ideas for me to try?  The only thing I didnít like about this attempt was that the skin wanted to stick to the peel some.  I donít know if that is because I applied so many dressings/or if the ambient room temperature (was warmer in our area yesterday) caused the dough to stick or what caused all of that.  Maybe it was even using the lower protein flour with a higher hydration that made the dough want to stick some to the peel.

I appreciate you told me to up the hydration.  That sure made a big difference.  :)

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #257 on: May 02, 2012, 09:21:31 AM »
Norma,

Preferments add an extra layer or two of complexity to a straight cold-fermented dough, because of the more complicated biochemistry, which makes it difficult to diagnose problems that arise with their use. And what works in one scenario (amount of preferment and related fermentation methods and times) is likely not to work in another scenario where you alter one or more of the variables. Also, in your case, you prefermented less of the total formula flour than the Lehmann preferment dough formulation you referenced. That alone would alter the fermentation schedule. To achieve the desired results, you would have to redesign the preferment dough formulation to meet your requirements and conduct tests to prove out the formulation on a consistent basis. I suspect that this is not the direction you want to go at this point, especially since you already have a good preferment Lehmann dough formulation to fall back on if necessary if you can't come up with a straight one-day cold fermented Lehmann dough with which you are happy and feel will satisfy your customers at market.

Peter





Peter,

I know preferments add an extra layer or two of complexity to a straight cold-fermented dough.  At this point I know I already have a good preferment Lehmann dough formulation that you had set-forth for me, so I donít want to move in that direction.  I should have tried the exact preferment Lehmann dough you set-forth for me with the GM Full Strength flour, but donít know why I didnít try that.

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #258 on: May 02, 2012, 12:33:43 PM »
To answer your question how the formulation using the GM Full Strength Lehmann dough with the 63% hydration compared with the other doughs I have made on this thread, I would say that I liked this iteration the best in how the crust tasted, how tender the crumb was, how much oven spring the rim had and overall the appearance of the pizza.  What I wonder is if I should drop the hydration by maybe 1% and not room temperature proof as long in the next attempt or do you have other ideas for me to try?  The only thing I didnít like about this attempt was that the skin wanted to stick to the peel some.  I donít know if that is because I applied so many dressings/or if the ambient room temperature (was warmer in our area yesterday) caused the dough to stick or what caused all of that.  Maybe it was even using the lower protein flour with a higher hydration that made the dough want to stick some to the peel.

I appreciate you told me to up the hydration.  That sure made a big difference.  :)


Norma,

From what I can tell, but for making a single larger pizza this time (a single 18" pizza vs. six 16" pizzas), and a couple of minor tweaks to the percentages of yeast and oil in the dough formulation that you previously posted at Reply 209 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg183987.html#msg183987, the most significant change for the most recent dough formulation (at Reply 237 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg185082.html#msg185082) was to the formula hydration--from 60% to 63%. I am somewhat surprised that these differences had such a favorable impact on the results you achieved. But, for now, we should just perhaps accept these results and see if they are replicated in future experiments based on the same general dough formulation.

You commented on how you used more toppings than usual. That, along with the warm environment, could have made the dough stick to the peel more than usual. However, generally speaking, I think you want to have the dough skin be able to handle the worse case situation as far as number and amounts of toppings are concerned. That might suggest increasing the thickness factor a bit in order to yield more dough that can support more toppings quantity-wise. As an alternative, you might lower the formula hydration by a percent or so but I would prefer to see if it was topping overload that was behind the sticking. Once we have the answer to that question, we can then decide what adjustments, including adjustment to the temper time, might be in order.

As for other possible changes, one you might consider for crust flavor enhancement purposes is to use some garlic powder in the dough. That should be a type of change that can be assessed independently of the structural types of changes to the crust itself, although too much garlic powder can have negative effects on the dough and, therefore, the crust and crumb. There is no urgency to this suggestion. It might actually be better to wait until you learn what factors might have been behind the sticking problem.

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #259 on: May 02, 2012, 01:14:59 PM »
Norma,

From what I can tell, but for making a single larger pizza this time (a single 18" pizza vs. six 16" pizzas), and a couple of minor tweaks to the percentages of yeast and oil in the dough formulation that you previously posted at Reply 209 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg183987.html#msg183987, the most significant change for the most recent dough formulation (at Reply 237 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg185082.html#msg185082) was to the formula hydration--from 60% to 63%. I am somewhat surprised that these differences had such a favorable impact on the results you achieved. But, for now, we should just perhaps accept these results and see if they are replicated in future experiments based on the same general dough formulation.

You commented on how you used more toppings than usual. That, along with the warm environment, could have made the dough stick to the peel more than usual. However, generally speaking, I think you want to have the dough skin be able to handle the worse case situation as far as number and amounts of toppings are concerned. That might suggest increasing the thickness factor a bit in order to yield more dough that can support more toppings quantity-wise. As an alternative, you might lower the formula hydration by a percent or so but I would prefer to see if it was topping overload that was behind the sticking. Once we have the answer to that question, we can then decide what adjustments, including adjustment to the temper time, might be in order.

As for other possible changes, one you might consider for crust flavor enhancement purposes is to use some garlic powder in the dough. That should be a type of change that can be assessed independently of the structural types of changes to the crust itself, although too much garlic powder can have negative effects on the dough and, therefore, the crust and crumb. There is no urgency to this suggestion. It might actually be better to wait until you learn what factors might have been behind the sticking problem.

Peter



Peter,

You are right about the size change and the other minor tweaks to the percentages of yeast and oil in the dough formulation.  I also reduced the amount of sugar in the formulation, but the major change was the hydration.  I didnít think the results would be that dramatic either, because last week there was a denser crumb.  When using this formulation it almost tasted and acted like a Reinhart formulation in the oven spring and softness in the crumb and taste.  I also want to see if the results can be replicated in another attempt.  I will mix the same formulation for this coming week to see how the dough handles and see if I have any sticking problems.

Thanks again for an idea to maybe use garlic powder in the dough.  I will wait and see what happens with the current formulation I was trying, before adding anymore variables.

Norma
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