Author Topic: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market  (Read 68246 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #250 on: May 02, 2012, 08:11:55 AM »
The attempt with the preferment NY style didnít turn out as good with the GM Full Strength flour.  It sure is a mystery to me in that the dough ball was made about the same, was left to cold ferment for the same amount of time and left to warm-up for almost the same amount of time why this attempt didnít get anything like the last attempt I posted about.  The dough looked the same, felt the same and opened easily.  Sauce and cheese were only applied for this attempt.  Steve slid this pie into the oven and he said something hung-up on the peel that made this pie not round.  The dough skin didnít feel to me like it was sticking on the peel at all.  This pizza had a much more denser rim, didnít have the same oven spring, and did brown differently on the bottom crust.  The crumb was still tender, but not as tender as the last attempt yesterday.  I didnít use as much rice flour on the peel for this attempt.  Ahhh, the mysteries of pizza.  :-D

Norma 


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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #251 on: May 02, 2012, 08:13:32 AM »
Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #252 on: May 02, 2012, 08:14:28 AM »
Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #253 on: May 02, 2012, 08:15:29 AM »
Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #254 on: May 02, 2012, 08:20:07 AM »
The pizza made with the increased hydration of 63% and the GM Full Strength flour turn out very good. 

Norma,

I'm glad to hear that your GM Full Strength Lehmann dough using the 63% hydration worked out well for you. Can you compare this version with your prior one-day Lehmann doughs and also tell us any areas where you would like to improve the latest version if you decide you want to proceed with that version?

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #255 on: May 02, 2012, 08:53:08 AM »
The attempt with the preferment NY style didnít turn out as good with the GM Full Strength flour.  It sure is a mystery to me in that the dough ball was made about the same, was left to cold ferment for the same amount of time and left to warm-up for almost the same amount of time why this attempt didnít get anything like the last attempt I posted about.  The dough looked the same, felt the same and opened easily.

Norma,

Preferments add an extra layer or two of complexity to a straight cold-fermented dough, because of the more complicated biochemistry, which makes it difficult to diagnose problems that arise with their use. And what works in one scenario (amount of preferment and related fermentation methods and times) is likely not to work in another scenario where you alter one or more of the variables. Also, in your case, you prefermented less of the total formula flour than the Lehmann preferment dough formulation you referenced. That alone would alter the fermentation schedule. To achieve the desired results, you would have to redesign the preferment dough formulation to meet your requirements and conduct tests to prove out the formulation on a consistent basis. I suspect that this is not the direction you want to go at this point, especially since you already have a good preferment Lehmann dough formulation to fall back on if necessary if you can't come up with a straight one-day cold fermented Lehmann dough with which you are happy and feel will satisfy your customers at market.

Peter




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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #256 on: May 02, 2012, 09:15:54 AM »
Norma,

I'm glad to hear that your GM Full Strength Lehmann dough using the 63% hydration worked out well for you. Can you compare this version with your prior one-day Lehmann doughs and also tell us any areas where you would like to improve the latest version if you decide you want to proceed with that version?

Peter

Peter,

To answer your question how the formulation using the GM Full Strength Lehmann dough with the 63% hydration compared with the other doughs I have made on this thread, I would say that I liked this iteration  the best in how the crust tasted, how tender the crumb was, how much oven spring the rim had and overall the appearance of the pizza.  What I wonder is if I should drop the hydration by maybe 1% and not room temperature proof as long in the next attempt or do you have other ideas for me to try?  The only thing I didnít like about this attempt was that the skin wanted to stick to the peel some.  I donít know if that is because I applied so many dressings/or if the ambient room temperature (was warmer in our area yesterday) caused the dough to stick or what caused all of that.  Maybe it was even using the lower protein flour with a higher hydration that made the dough want to stick some to the peel.

I appreciate you told me to up the hydration.  That sure made a big difference.  :)

Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #257 on: May 02, 2012, 09:21:31 AM »
Norma,

Preferments add an extra layer or two of complexity to a straight cold-fermented dough, because of the more complicated biochemistry, which makes it difficult to diagnose problems that arise with their use. And what works in one scenario (amount of preferment and related fermentation methods and times) is likely not to work in another scenario where you alter one or more of the variables. Also, in your case, you prefermented less of the total formula flour than the Lehmann preferment dough formulation you referenced. That alone would alter the fermentation schedule. To achieve the desired results, you would have to redesign the preferment dough formulation to meet your requirements and conduct tests to prove out the formulation on a consistent basis. I suspect that this is not the direction you want to go at this point, especially since you already have a good preferment Lehmann dough formulation to fall back on if necessary if you can't come up with a straight one-day cold fermented Lehmann dough with which you are happy and feel will satisfy your customers at market.

Peter





Peter,

I know preferments add an extra layer or two of complexity to a straight cold-fermented dough.  At this point I know I already have a good preferment Lehmann dough formulation that you had set-forth for me, so I donít want to move in that direction.  I should have tried the exact preferment Lehmann dough you set-forth for me with the GM Full Strength flour, but donít know why I didnít try that.

Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #258 on: May 02, 2012, 12:33:43 PM »
To answer your question how the formulation using the GM Full Strength Lehmann dough with the 63% hydration compared with the other doughs I have made on this thread, I would say that I liked this iteration the best in how the crust tasted, how tender the crumb was, how much oven spring the rim had and overall the appearance of the pizza.  What I wonder is if I should drop the hydration by maybe 1% and not room temperature proof as long in the next attempt or do you have other ideas for me to try?  The only thing I didnít like about this attempt was that the skin wanted to stick to the peel some.  I donít know if that is because I applied so many dressings/or if the ambient room temperature (was warmer in our area yesterday) caused the dough to stick or what caused all of that.  Maybe it was even using the lower protein flour with a higher hydration that made the dough want to stick some to the peel.

I appreciate you told me to up the hydration.  That sure made a big difference.  :)

Norma,

From what I can tell, but for making a single larger pizza this time (a single 18" pizza vs. six 16" pizzas), and a couple of minor tweaks to the percentages of yeast and oil in the dough formulation that you previously posted at Reply 209 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg183987.html#msg183987, the most significant change for the most recent dough formulation (at Reply 237 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg185082.html#msg185082) was to the formula hydration--from 60% to 63%. I am somewhat surprised that these differences had such a favorable impact on the results you achieved. But, for now, we should just perhaps accept these results and see if they are replicated in future experiments based on the same general dough formulation.

You commented on how you used more toppings than usual. That, along with the warm environment, could have made the dough stick to the peel more than usual. However, generally speaking, I think you want to have the dough skin be able to handle the worse case situation as far as number and amounts of toppings are concerned. That might suggest increasing the thickness factor a bit in order to yield more dough that can support more toppings quantity-wise. As an alternative, you might lower the formula hydration by a percent or so but I would prefer to see if it was topping overload that was behind the sticking. Once we have the answer to that question, we can then decide what adjustments, including adjustment to the temper time, might be in order.

As for other possible changes, one you might consider for crust flavor enhancement purposes is to use some garlic powder in the dough. That should be a type of change that can be assessed independently of the structural types of changes to the crust itself, although too much garlic powder can have negative effects on the dough and, therefore, the crust and crumb. There is no urgency to this suggestion. It might actually be better to wait until you learn what factors might have been behind the sticking problem.

Peter


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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #259 on: May 02, 2012, 01:14:59 PM »
Norma,

From what I can tell, but for making a single larger pizza this time (a single 18" pizza vs. six 16" pizzas), and a couple of minor tweaks to the percentages of yeast and oil in the dough formulation that you previously posted at Reply 209 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg183987.html#msg183987, the most significant change for the most recent dough formulation (at Reply 237 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg185082.html#msg185082) was to the formula hydration--from 60% to 63%. I am somewhat surprised that these differences had such a favorable impact on the results you achieved. But, for now, we should just perhaps accept these results and see if they are replicated in future experiments based on the same general dough formulation.

You commented on how you used more toppings than usual. That, along with the warm environment, could have made the dough stick to the peel more than usual. However, generally speaking, I think you want to have the dough skin be able to handle the worse case situation as far as number and amounts of toppings are concerned. That might suggest increasing the thickness factor a bit in order to yield more dough that can support more toppings quantity-wise. As an alternative, you might lower the formula hydration by a percent or so but I would prefer to see if it was topping overload that was behind the sticking. Once we have the answer to that question, we can then decide what adjustments, including adjustment to the temper time, might be in order.

As for other possible changes, one you might consider for crust flavor enhancement purposes is to use some garlic powder in the dough. That should be a type of change that can be assessed independently of the structural types of changes to the crust itself, although too much garlic powder can have negative effects on the dough and, therefore, the crust and crumb. There is no urgency to this suggestion. It might actually be better to wait until you learn what factors might have been behind the sticking problem.

Peter


Peter,

You are right about the size change and the other minor tweaks to the percentages of yeast and oil in the dough formulation.  I also reduced the amount of sugar in the formulation, but the major change was the hydration.  I didnít think the results would be that dramatic either, because last week there was a denser crumb.  When using this formulation it almost tasted and acted like a Reinhart formulation in the oven spring and softness in the crumb and taste.  I also want to see if the results can be replicated in another attempt.  I will mix the same formulation for this coming week to see how the dough handles and see if I have any sticking problems.

Thanks again for an idea to maybe use garlic powder in the dough.  I will wait and see what happens with the current formulation I was trying, before adding anymore variables.

Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #260 on: May 02, 2012, 11:34:28 PM »
I have been sticking to a .25-.3% idy, 1.75-2% salt and 1%oil latley and have been using 59% water and usually a 2 day cold ferment  and since it is warmer out side i have had sticking problems too and softer skins. will be going back to 58% or lower hydration for the warmer weather. I never have any luck with 60% or higher hydration due to softer dough which makes it stickier and have to shape it quicker. I notice alot of the forum uses 62% and up for hydration so i hope i am not missing something. Hope this makes sence. I like a firmer dough and the quality of the crust is not that much diff. My crusts do taste pretty good. I usually take the dough out of the cooler 1 1/2 -2 hours before baking and juggle with them in and out of the cooler as the night goes on. Seems to be working ok but have only been serving to the public since Jan. and still learning.

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #261 on: May 03, 2012, 08:18:04 AM »
I have been sticking to a .25-.3% idy, 1.75-2% salt and 1%oil latley and have been using 59% water and usually a 2 day cold ferment  and since it is warmer out side i have had sticking problems too and softer skins. will be going back to 58% or lower hydration for the warmer weather. I never have any luck with 60% or higher hydration due to softer dough which makes it stickier and have to shape it quicker. I notice alot of the forum uses 62% and up for hydration so i hope i am not missing something. Hope this makes sence. I like a firmer dough and the quality of the crust is not that much diff. My crusts do taste pretty good. I usually take the dough out of the cooler 1 1/2 -2 hours before baking and juggle with them in and out of the cooler as the night goes on. Seems to be working ok but have only been serving to the public since Jan. and still learning.

franko9752,

When I first started making pizza, and didnít know anything about pizza dough, Peter set-forth a formulation for me just about the same one you are using now.  I am even half embarrassed to link to those posts, because I sure didnít know anything about pizza dough at that time and kept making so many mistakes.  :-D  I since have tried many formulations to be considered for market.  I donít know why I like higher hydration doughs, but it might be because of the oven spring, moistness in the crumb and what appears to me as a better tasting crust.  I know that is probably taking my pizzas outside of the regular NY style as normally members think about it. I donít know if I will be able to handle a higher hydration dough when it is warmer, because they do ferment faster when at room temperature, at least for me.  I am always still learning too.

Thanks for posting what you do with your dough in lowering the hydration for use in the summer.  I can imagine your pizzas do taste very good, because you are using a 2 day cold ferment, which leads to a better tasting crust.  Wish I could do a straight Lehmann dough with a 2 day cold ferment.  Interesting that you even have to juggle some dough balls in and out of the fridge as the night goes on. 

Norma   

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #262 on: May 03, 2012, 08:55:55 AM »
franko9752,

What you are using is a classic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. That was the dough formulation that I cut my teeth on when I first started playing around with the NY style dough back in 2004 (when I started the Lehmann thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html) and, no doubt, was the reason why I suggested it to Norma. You are correct that on the forum there is a tendency to push the envelope and use fairly high hydration values. It is an approach that is well tolerated in a home setting and even if the failure rate is higher no one gets hurt. However, in a commercial setting, failure at any level is not an option. There are some pizza operators who are able to work with high hydration doughs in a commercial setting but the safer route is to use lower hydration values, especially if the pizza makers are transient, low cost labor workers who are unlikely to stay around long enough to master working with high hydration doughs. Over the years, I have paid close attention in my reading to the hydration levels used by professionals, and I would say that a hydration value of around 57-60% is pretty much the working range of hydration values for commercial New York style doughs.

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #263 on: May 03, 2012, 11:15:53 AM »
Thanks Norma and Pete! I follow you guys all the time.           
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 11:20:05 AM by franko9752 »

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #264 on: May 03, 2012, 11:21:56 AM »
Thanks Norma and Pete! I follow you guys all the time.

franko9752,

Don't follow me, just follow Peter.  He is the one that knows much more than I do.  I am sorta still a newbie in learning everything.  :-D

Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #265 on: May 03, 2012, 11:22:48 AM »
"I am even half embarrassed to link to those posts, because I sure didnít know anything about pizza dough at that time and kept making so many mistakes."         Norma, i have read your 1st posts and learned MUCHO from them, nothing to be embarressed of :-[

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #266 on: May 03, 2012, 11:25:36 AM »
"I am even half embarrassed to link to those posts, because I sure didnít know anything about pizza dough at that time and kept making so many mistakes."         Norma, i have read your 1st posts and learned MUCHO from them, nothing to be embarressed of :-[

franko9752,

I am glad you learned from all of my mistakes when I first learned to make pizza dough.  At least someone learned from them.  Whenever I go back to them they sure make me chuckle. 

Norma


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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #267 on: May 03, 2012, 05:35:29 PM »
Thanks Norma and Pete! I follow you guys all the time.           

franko9752,

Don't follow me, just follow Peter.  He is the one that knows much more than I do.  I am sorta still a newbie in learning everything.  :-D

Norma

Norma you are too modest! I follow you and Peter all the time as well. I absolutely love to see y'alls experiments. I am looking forward to whatever y'all decide to test next in y'alls search for even more wonderful pies.

-Cory
More is better..... and too much is just right.

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #268 on: May 03, 2012, 06:32:08 PM »
Norma you are too modest! I follow you and Peter all the time as well. I absolutely love to see y'alls experiments. I am looking forward to whatever y'all decide to test next in y'alls search for even more wonderful pies.

-Cory

Cory,

It is Peter that keeps me from going off the cliff.  I may do some wacky experiments, but Peter helps so I don't do something really weird.  Peter is the one that can link to amost anything.  I just follow along.

Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #269 on: May 03, 2012, 07:11:46 PM »
Cory,

To quote Shakespeare, The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Norma is an extraordinary person, period. And she is is a tireless worker, who will do just about anything for anyone. She does not like math, as she has told us a thousand times, but she makes up for it by having exceptional natural instincts. I don't think I am the only one who tunes into the forum to see what Norma is doing at any given time. She is a valuable asset to the forum.

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #270 on: May 07, 2012, 08:02:46 AM »
I decided to take a leftover frozen dough ball from Tuesday to Steveís home yesterday to see how it would bake in his WFO while making other Neapolitan pizzas.  The dough ball was unfrozen using my microwave oven. 

Steve had to get his bigger peel for me to launch the pie into his WFO.  Steve told me I would see there are problems trying to launch a pie from a bigger peel into his WFO.  >:D I couldnít figure out what he meant, but found out when I went to launch the pie.  The peel is almost the same size as the mouth of the oven.  When I went to slide it in and quickly retract the peel, the peel hit the oven arch and made the pie not round and folded under a little.  I quickly learned that loading an 18Ē pie into a WFO with a bigger peel isnít the easiest thing to do.   :-D

The pie was just dressed with cheddar cheese, pepperoni and sauce.  Lickety split, almost a coal fired oven pizza from a regular dough ball. Wow, the pie sure wasnít round, but developed one huge bubble.  8) I also had problems trying to turn this pie, so one side was baked better than the other.  My regular dough sure tasted different in a WFO.   

Norma 

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #271 on: May 07, 2012, 08:04:14 AM »
Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #272 on: May 07, 2012, 08:05:43 AM »
Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #273 on: May 07, 2012, 08:02:17 PM »
Another dough was mixed using the formulation at Reply 237 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg185082.html#msg185082 today.  I will see if I can get about the same results as last week.  I used GM Full Strength flour again.

Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #274 on: May 08, 2012, 09:19:56 PM »
The same formulation I used last week, turned out a lot better this week when making a pizza.  The dough ball fermented well in one day.  The dough ball was only left to warm-up for about 40 minutes.  The dough ball opened up so easily and not much flour was used on the bench or to flour the dough ball.  When it came time to slide it into the oven it went in smoothly without any sticking issues.   The pizza baked very well, had really nice oven spring, a nice moistness in the crust, good bottom crust browning, and a good taste in the crust.  The only thing that could have been a little better was the browning on the rim, but it wasnít bad.  Steve, my tasters and I enjoyed this pie.

Norma