the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I am not sure what to try next. 

Norma,

Since it appears that using modest toppings might be leading to the skins sticking to the peel, which is something that concerned us earlier, you might lower the hydration to see if that helps. As for the crust coloration, you might try increasing the amount of dried dairy whey. You might recall that Tom Lehmann suggested something close to 10%. Since that is considerably higher than what you used, it might be a good test to see if it makes a difference. If that doesn't help, then we will have to look elsewhere for a solution. But, even if it helps, it might lead to other crust characteristics that you don't like. That is part of the challenge of trying to make a one-day cold fermented dough that does everything you want it to do.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Since it appears that using modest toppings might be leading to the skins sticking to the peel, which is something that concerned us earlier, you might lower the hydration to see if that helps. As for the crust coloration, you might try increasing the amount of dried dairy whey. You might recall that Tom Lehmann suggested something close to 10%. Since that is considerably higher than what you used, it might be a good test to see if it makes a difference. If that doesn't help, then we will have to look elsewhere for a solution. But, even if it helps, it might lead to other crust characteristics that you don't like. That is part of the challenge of trying to make a one-day cold fermented dough that does everything you want it to do.

Peter

Peter,

What hydration to you suggest?  I didn’t have any problems with the sticking issue last week, but this week was a whole different story.  I don’t know if it was the high humidity or what that cause the skin to want to stick to the peel.  It had rained heavily different times yesterday, then the sun came out and it was really humid. The door beside my pizza stand is always opened in warmer weather.  I can imagine that the humidity does make the peel, bench flour, and peel flour all harder to work with, especially with a higher hydration dough.  I would think from the tests we did with flour sitting out, that humidity can develop in the flours and maybe even on the peel.  I noticed different times yesterday that my marble slab had to be scraped a lot more, because the bench flour wanted to stick and make a mess.  Even my deli doors wanted to steam on the outside yesterday.

I wonder just how much the dried dairy whey can be upped, because I did have to use a screen at the end of the bake yesterday.  I sure don’t want to have to use a screen all the time.

As you know to try and get a dough that works out in all ways for a one day ferment is going to be hard.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Now that you have explained the conditions at market yesterday, I can see how they might have affected the dough. However, apart from trying to manage the dough around those conditions, for example, by working with the dough on the cold/cool side or by cutting the temper time short, about the only way I can think of from a dough formulation standpoint to offset the effects you mentioned is to lower the hydration. For example, if you were using a hydration of, say, 56-58%, you might get better results. However, if you do that, then you will lose some oven spring and maybe end up with a denser crust.

As for the dairy whey, if you had to use a screen, then it sounds like the bottom crust was browning properly but that the top crust was not browning as well. Increasing the dairy whey will exacerbate the bottom bake problem. Maybe you will have to lower the oven temperature and bake the pizzas longer to let more moisture to be driven out of the dough and allow more time for the rims of the pizzas to develop more color. However, if you do this with a materially lower hydration, you are likely to end up with a dense and overly chewy crust with increased crispiness. I don't think that you would like such a pizza.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Now that you have explained the conditions at market yesterday, I can see how they might have affected the dough. However, apart from trying to manage the dough around those conditions, for example, by working with the dough on the cold/cool side or by cutting the temper time short, about the only way I can think of from a dough formulation standpoint to offset the effects you mentioned is to lower the hydration. For example, if you were using a hydration of, say, 56-58%, you might get better results. However, if you do that, then you will lose some oven spring and maybe end up with a denser crust.

As for the dairy whey, if you had to use a screen, then it sounds like the bottom crust was browning properly but that the top crust was not browning as well. Increasing the dairy whey will exacerbate the bottom bake problem. Maybe you will have to lower the oven temperature and bake the pizzas longer to let more moisture to be driven out of the dough and allow more time for the rims of the pizzas to develop more color. However, if you do this with a materially lower hydration, you are likely to end up with a dense and overly chewy crust with increased crispiness. I don't think that you would like such a pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I know that trying to open the dough when it is cooler could be a good solution, but know I won’t always be able to do that.  When there are many dough balls to deal with things get complicated.  I know I tried about the same formulation with GM Full Strength flour with a lower hydration and didn’t like those results.

I might just stick to my current formulation for market and the same flour and not try to change anything.  Each step seems to complicate things more. 

I don’t think I am going to lower my oven temperature to try an increased amount of dried dairy whey.  I think that experiment is off for this coming week.

Thanks for your help! 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I agree with your strategy for next week. One thing you might consider, however, when you see that one of your dough balls is likely to produce an overly extensible and possibly sticky skin is to have some parchment paper on hand. Recently, I made a 7-day cold fermented dough that led to a very extensible skin. Since I planned to put a fair number of things on the skin, I was fearful that the dressed skin would stick to the peel. So, I simply put a sheet of parchment paper on the peel and placed the skin on it, which I then dressed. Before loading the pizza onto the stone, I trimmed the parchment paper to the approximate size and shape of the dressed skin. Part way into the bake, once the pizza had firmed up, I removed the parchment paper from the oven.

I might add that there are some pizza operators who apparently routinely use parchment paper. See, for example, the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7440&p=50271&hilit=parchment+paper+oven#p50266. However, I suspect that there are only a few who do that.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I agree with your strategy for next week. One thing you might consider, however, when you see that one of your dough balls is likely to produce an overly extensible and possibly sticky skin is to have some parchment paper on hand. Recently, I made a 7-day cold fermented dough that led to a very extensible skin. Since I planned to put a fair number of things on the skin, I was fearful that the dressed skin would stick to the peel. So, I simply put a sheet of parchment paper on the peel and placed the skin on it, which I then dressed. Before loading the pizza onto the stone, I trimmed the parchment paper to the approximate size and shape of the dressed skin. Part way into the bake, once the pizza had firmed up, I removed the parchment paper from the oven.

I might add that there are some pizza operators who apparently routinely use parchment paper. See, for example, the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7440&p=50271&hilit=parchment+paper+oven#p50266. However, I suspect that there are only a few who do that.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the idea to use some parchment baking paper if the skins might be too sticky or extensible.  I have loads of parchment sheets at market and will try that method for this coming week to see if there is anyway the higher hydration dough might be used.  I didn’t even give that a thought, even though I know many members of the forum, including you, have used parchment paper.  I do use parchment paper for other products other than pizza.  For the cheesy breadsticks, I just bake until a little firm, then slide the whole works off the partly baked breadsticks and parchment paper right onto the deck.  I am not to sure of the grade of parchment paper I have from the link you referenced though. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I am not to sure of the grade of parchment paper I have from the link you referenced though. 

Norma,

The brand of parchment paper I have is the Reynolds brand, and the box says that the parchment paper can be used up to 420 degrees F. However, I pull the parchment paper out of the oven when the pizza has firmed up. That is at around 180 degrees F, when the starches gelatinize, although I sometimes wait a bit longer.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The brand of parchment paper I have is the Reynolds brand, and the box says that the parchment paper can be used up to 420 degrees F. However, I pull the parchment paper out of the oven when the pizza has firmed up. That is at around 180 degrees F, when the starches gelatinize, although I sometimes wait a bit longer.

Peter

Peter,

I just went out and looked into the back of my van where I store things like containers, bags, pizza boxes, paper towels, water and other things that I might need at market on a Tuesday, or other days, and looked at the box of what I thought was parchment paper.  I don’t know if what I use is parchment paper or not, but the box says Regular Release Bakery Pan Liner 2,000 sheets 12-1/8 x16-3/8 Papercon.  I am not sure what temperature they are made to go up to.  The back of my van is like a small storage area for stuff I can’t fit into market. 

I do have regular parchment paper at home, which is 100% unbleached parchment baking paper.  Mine at home says it is good up to 450 degrees F. 

Norma

[norma427]

This is what I have if anyone is interested to try for sticky or extensible dough skins.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/12-x-16-quilon-parchment-paper-pan-liner-2000-cs/43330005.html

It says they can be used up to 425 degrees F.  I will give them a try next Tuesday.

The same product can be bought in smaller amounts.

Norma

[norma427]

I had two frozen dough balls from the 5 dough ball batch and used two sheets of parchment paper on the peel for the one pizza and no parchment paper for the second pizza.  The first pizza with the two sheets of parchment paper slid into the oven with ease, but the second pizza without the parchment paper wanted to stick some again.  These are only the pictures of the pizza using the parchment papers.

The dough ball in the plastic bag was really gassy before it was used.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

This is the formulation I figured out for the “Epoxy Lehmann” dough to try for Tuesday.  I hope the
“Epoxy Lehmann” dough formulation is figured out right using the expanded dough calculating took and the preferment dough calculating tool.

Norma

[norma427]

I mixed a Lehmann “epoxy” dough late this morning.  The water temperature for the soaker was 115.8 degrees F.  I am also concerned about the amount of IDY I used in the preferment, the same way I am concerned about how much IDY I used in the Pizzarium “epoxy” dough.  I should have thought that the amount of IDY was a lot for the preferment before mixing.

I used GM Full Strength flour for this attempt.

Picture right after the preferment and soaker were mixed.

Norma

[norma427]

I took the pH of the “epoxy” Lehmann dough soaker this morning and it was 6.26.  The soaker made with the GM Full Strength flour did form gluten, but it isn’t as strong as the soaker that also was made about the same time as the one on Jim’s epoxy thread with a combination of flours.  It makes me wonder how different flours make soakers different, or why the one with the combination of flours seems stronger.  On the first picture is how the preferment has bubbled in about a day. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

I took the pH numbers of the preferment and soaker today.  These were the numbers.

Lehmann “epoxy dough” pH numbers.
Soaker 6.06
Preferment 5.13

If any is interested in seeing the other pH numbers of the other two“epoxy doughs”, they are at Reply 335

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg189187.html#msg189187

Norma

[norma427]

At Reply 356 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg189326.html#msg189326  I posted the final dough pH numbers all in one place and what method I used for mixing if anyone is interested.

These are just the pictures of the process so far for this thread for the NY style “epoxy” attempt.

Norma

[norma427]

The NY style “epoxy” Lehmann dough pizza turned out well today.  The temperature inside market today was hot and about 92 degrees or higher at my stand.  The dough was left to sit out and warm up for about 1 ˝ hrs, or longer, which might have been too long at that high of the temperature, and the dough proofed a lot in that amount of time, but after flouring the dough ball a little it was a breeze to open.  The “epoxy” Lehmann dough pizza had decent oven spring, good moistness in the rim, and a nice crispness on the bottom crust.  The taste of the crust was also good.  I don’t think I would have needed to add the extra sprinkles of IDY in the final dough.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma