the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[JimmyG]

Norma,
Your epoxy Lehmann looks great. It appears to be nicely browned, with a nice open whole structure. Do you think lower the water temp made much of a difference in the density and oven spring of your final crust? Did you notice any flavor changes compared with the other week or were they pretty similar? In any case, nice looking pie.
Jim 

[norma427]

Norma,
Your epoxy Lehmann looks great. It appears to be nicely browned, with a nice open whole structure. Do you think lower the water temp made much of a difference in the density and oven spring of your final crust? Did you notice any flavor changes compared with the other week or were they pretty similar? In any case, nice looking pie.
Jim 

Jim,

I really don’t know if the “epoxy” method made big differences in the density and oven spring of the final crust.  The rim was very moist though.  I really liked the crispness on the bottom crust though and how easily the dough ball opened.   Bob1 was at market yesterday and with all the slices of pizzas he gave Steve and me to taste, I think we must have had pizza overload before I started any of my experiments.  Steve and I only tasted one slice of each of the experiments.  It also was hot at market, so that too, can make you not want to eat as much.  I really didn’t have time to reflect on flavor changes from last week.

Norma

[chickenparm]

Those pies look Superb!! I enjoy the new experiments as always!
 

[norma427]

Those pies look Superb!! I enjoy the new experiments as always!
 

Bill,

Thanks!   I would be tempted to try and use the formulation I just attempted for a market dough pizza, but think I would get the formulation mixed-up when trying to figure it out in larger batches, and also knowing how much yeast to add so the preferment would be ready when Monday comes for the final dough.   I loved how easy the skin was to open and didn’t want to stick to the peel at all.  

Thanks also for saying you enjoy the experiments.

Norma  

[norma427]

Peter,

When you mentioned trying ADY at Reply 69 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg180761.html#msg180761 in what way did you mean to suggest using ADY?  Do you really think ADY would make any difference in the taste of the crust?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

When you mentioned trying ADY at Reply 69 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg180761.html#msg180761 in what way did you mean to suggest using ADY?  Do you really think ADY would make any difference in the taste of the crust?

Norma

Norma,

I don't think that you are going to say WOW when using ADY in a one-day NY style dough. The "flavor" theory with respect to ADY is that the ADY contains more dead cells than fresh yeast or IDY and that those dead cells impart a flavor to the finished crust. I believe that that is true if you use a lot of the ADY as you might, for example, in making a low-hydration cracker-style dough with a reasonably short fermentation period (see, for example, DKM's recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php). At low levels of usage, you might get a minor flavor note from using ADY, but it is possible that it may be too subtle to stick out. I suggested it only because I was trying to cram as much flavor into a one-day cold fermented dough (and the resulting finished crust) as possible.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I don't think that you are going to say WOW when using ADY in a one-day NY style dough. The "flavor" theory with respect to ADY is that the ADY contains more dead cells than fresh yeast or IDY and that those dead cells impart a flavor to the finished crust. I believe that that is true if you use a lot of the ADY as you might, for example, in making a low-hydration cracker-style dough with a reasonably short fermentation period (see, for example, DKM's recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php). At low levels of usage, you might get a minor flavor note from using ADY, but it is possible that it may be too subtle to stick out. I suggested it only because I was trying to cram as much flavor into a one-day cold fermented dough (and the resulting finished crust) as possible.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that you don’t think I would say WOW if changing to ADY.  I know ADY contains more dead cells than fresh yeast or IDY and those dead cells are what impart any additional flavor to the finished curst. 

I know you were trying to cram as much flavor in a one day crust as you could.  I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something that you might have mentioned.  Sometimes I have problems with recalling all that is posted and how all those variables apply to a better tasting crust.

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

Guys, I sort of brought this up in a backwards way in that other thread (that will remain nameless lest my blood boil -- half kidding )...

From the research I've done I have gleaned a few things about commercial dry yeasts:

• They are usually GMO's unless specifically stated otherwise.
• ADY and IDY are different strains and in addition to IDY being more vigorous in general it is also more tolerant of low temps and comes out of retardation more quickly.
• Some stains are specifically osmotolerant, meaning they can still ferment doughs with a good amount of sugar in them where regular ADY or IDY would not perform. These strains are sometimes also more tolerant of preservatives in the dough and are well utilized by commercial bakers.

I mentioned an "ADY liquid levain" as a possible way to make a straight dough with more flavor. What I meant was to take a truly minuscule amount of ADY (.25 g or so) and making a 200% hydration preferment with that and letting it ferment out and then overferment some -- around a day or so (give or take) until it sours. This can then be retarded and kept as a "mother" in the fridge requiring a weekly discard and feed to maintain it and/or used to leaven dough as is (if stored as a mother it should be made more firm to slow it down). Or on dough making day a small amount is taken from the mother and fed to activate it and then this is used to directly inoculate a regular straight dough in replace of a more conventional leaven. This approach works just as well with cake yeast though I chose to highlight ADY because it is more practical.

I learned about his technique from the amazing bakers at http://www.biencuit.com/about-the-bread/ , one of NYC's best French style bakeries.

This is a good way to get a one day dough that doesn't skimp in the flavor department.

[norma427]

Guys, I sort of brought this up in a backwards way in that other thread (that will remain nameless lest my blood boil -- half kidding )...

From the research I've done I have gleaned a few things about commercial dry yeasts:

• They are usually GMO's unless specifically stated otherwise.
• ADY and IDY are different strains and in addition to IDY being more vigorous in general it is also more tolerant of low temps and comes out of retardation more quickly.
• Some stains are specifically osmotolerant, meaning they can still ferment doughs with a good amount of sugar in them where regular ADY or IDY would not perform. These strains are sometimes also more tolerant of preservatives in the dough and are well utilized by commercial bakers.

I mentioned an "ADY liquid levain" as a possible way to make a straight dough with more flavor. What I meant was to take a truly minuscule amount of ADY (.25 g or so) and making a 200% hydration preferment with that and letting it ferment out and then overferment some -- around a day or so (give or take) until it sours. This can then be retarded and kept as a "mother" in the fridge requiring a weekly discard and feed to maintain it and/or used to leaven dough as is (if stored as a mother it should be made more firm to slow it down). Or on dough making day a small amount is taken from the mother and fed to activate it and then this is used to directly inoculate a regular straight dough in replace of a more conventional leaven. This approach works just as well with cake yeast though I chose to highlight ADY because it is more practical.

I learned about his technique from the amazing bakers at http://www.biencuit.com/about-the-bread/ , one of NYC's best French style bakeries.

This is a good way to get a one day dough that doesn't skimp in the flavor department.

John,

I sure don’t want to make your blood boil.  I never intended to put your ideas off, or make you think I am not interested.

I really don’t understand what a GMO is and what strains of IDY and ADY you are talking about, in some stains are specifically osmotolerant.  What kind of strains are you talking about that are used by specifically by bakers?

I did ask you in Reply 136 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.msg190033.html#msg190033  what a “ADY liquid levain” was, because I had never heard of that before.  Thanks for explaining what a “ADY liquid levain” is.  I would like to try your method, but am not sure if I could come up with a trial formulation, or be able to figure out how to feed the mother.  Is a mother like a biga?  Do you know how long the mother could sit in the deli case before it would need to be fed? 

I can understand your way would be a great way to increase the taste of a one day dough if I can get it all figured out for an experiment. 

Norma

[norma427]

I tried a little different approach to one 15 lb. batch of the one day Lehmann dough today.  I used 3 dough balls that were frozen and then defrosted to mix in the regular Lehmann dough.  After the flour, IDY, sugar and salt were mostly mixed with the water, I put in the 3 unfrozen dough balls then mixed until I thought it was time to add the olive oil.  I sure don’t know if that will improve the flavor of the crust tomorrow or not.    

The mixed regular Lehmann dough with the 3 unfrozen dough balls incorporated felt nice.  

I was very lucky today because right before I was ready to leave market I heard this buzzing sound and look at my one outlet that has a GFCI receptacle near my sinks and somehow it was sparking and then went out.   That is where my pizza prep fridge is plugged into.  If I wouldn’t have been at market when the GFCI receptacle went out, all my dough balls probably would have been ruined tomorrow.  At least I could get extension cords and plugged my pizza prep fridge and other stuff in other outlets.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[johnnydoubleu]

Such a beautiful dough Norma, it really is. Glad you were around to catch the outlet problem!

Also, brilliant idea adding the frozen defrosted dough. Clearly it worked.

[norma427]

Such a beautiful dough Norma, it really is. Glad you were around to catch the outlet problem!

Also, brilliant idea adding the frozen defrosted dough. Clearly it worked.

John,

Thanks for your kind comment about the dough!   It is the Hobart mixer that mixes the dough so good.  I also am glad I was around to see the outlet problem.  I was minutes away from leaving market.  At least the GFCI receptacle worked and it quickly shut off my stuff, lights and all.   I think what might have happened is I placed some wet utensils in a basket above the receptacle and the water might have dripped on the receptacle or outlets.

I won’t know if there will be any better flavor in the crust from the added defrosted dough balls or not, until tomorrow.  I did try one other time adding dough balls (that were a couple of days old) to the preferment Lehmann dough but don’t know if that really gave a better flavor in the crust or not.  I was just worried it would work with adding the dough balls that looked slack.  I don’t recall tasting the pizzas from those dough balls.  I was just happy they would make pizzas.  

Norma