Author Topic: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market  (Read 48390 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #700 on: September 30, 2013, 08:05:54 PM »
I think your pictures show alot Norma!!  I'll be interested on how the doughs of each batch are the same or are different....and what you can feel.  Can you believe after all this time, we're still talking about mixing dough??
John

John,

I will let you know what happens with those two dough batches.  I feel the same as you do that after all this time we still are talking about the best way to mix doughs.   :-D  Experiment after experiment and we really don't know what is best for each kind of pizza doughs.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #701 on: September 30, 2013, 11:01:34 PM »
John,

Interesting that you are taking an online artisan bread class from Peter Reinhart.  I have seen when making Craig's dough which is Neapolitan how the stretch and folds do make a better dough even in small amounts of about 3 dough balls.  Craig's dough is for another time though, but his methods are here on the forum.

Norma
I read Craig's stuff the first time you mentioned it to me a while ago...still lots of things to test Norma....I'm going to try my shortened folding method on the sour doughs that I had good luck with....they were good but took too damned long to make!  Looking forward to more results from you
John

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #702 on: October 02, 2013, 05:58:44 PM »
These are some of the pizzas made with the longer mixes.  I could not tell the differences from the 15 or 20 minute mixes in how the dough balls opened or performed.  The extra time mixed did make the dough feel stronger though.  I don't think I will ever be able to understand how to properly mix this kind of dough.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #703 on: October 02, 2013, 06:00:17 PM »
Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #704 on: October 02, 2013, 07:32:37 PM »
These are some of the pizzas made with the longer mixes.  I could not tell the differences from the 15 or 20 minute mixes in how the dough balls opened or performed.  The extra time mixed did make the dough feel stronger though.  I don't think I will ever be able to understand how to properly mix this kind of dough.

Norma
Well, the pizzas are beautiful Norma!!  I hate it when a test gives you no definitive answers...how about in the taste and texture departments...any differences there???

John

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #705 on: October 02, 2013, 08:10:20 PM »
Well, the pizzas are beautiful Norma!!  I hate it when a test gives you no definitive answers...how about in the taste and texture departments...any differences there???

John

John,

The taste and texture of the pies were like my normal pizzas I make each week.  Steve and I both tasted them.  The only thing we thought is the rim crust might be a little crisper and a little darker.  The somewhat darker rim crusts and a little more crispness could have been from letting the pizzas in the oven a little longer though.  I would have thought when mixing so long with All Trumps bromated flour the rim crust would have become more chewy, but that was not the case.  The skins seemed a little more stretchy, but that is about all that happened.  I really don't know what to try next.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #706 on: October 03, 2013, 12:52:49 AM »
Norma
Don't know if I ever passed this along...sorry if I already have.  !0 years ago I attended the Dough Doctor's week long pizza production seminar in Manhattan Kansas (by the way, it was amazing!).  When we got to the mixing of dough, he taught us the hen's egg test.  So, we mixed dough until the dough passed the test..and then we scaled, balled and refrigerated it until the next day.  To illustrate the effect of time on gluten development, we took a dough ball the next day in between about 4 or 5 of us standing in a circle.  We slowly, gently pulled on the dough from all sides....and as we turned the dough round and round it stretched into the hugest window you have ever seen....i'm thinking at least 20 to 25 inches.  I'll never forget it!!  I just remembered that as we discuss the mixing of dough!!
John

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #707 on: October 03, 2013, 09:23:52 AM »
Norma
Don't know if I ever passed this along...sorry if I already have.  !0 years ago I attended the Dough Doctor's week long pizza production seminar in Manhattan Kansas (by the way, it was amazing!).  When we got to the mixing of dough, he taught us the hen's egg test.  So, we mixed dough until the dough passed the test..and then we scaled, balled and refrigerated it until the next day.  To illustrate the effect of time on gluten development, we took a dough ball the next day in between about 4 or 5 of us standing in a circle.  We slowly, gently pulled on the dough from all sides....and as we turned the dough round and round it stretched into the hugest window you have ever seen....i'm thinking at least 20 to 25 inches.  I'll never forget it!!  I just remembered that as we discuss the mixing of dough!!
John

John,

I think you mentioned that you attended Tom Lehmann's week long pizza production seminar in Manhattan, Kansas before, but I don't recall you posting about how he taught you to do the hen's egg test.  I also don't recall about taking the dough ball the next day and slowly and gently pulling on the dough on all sides and being able to stretch it into the hugest window you have ever seen.  What kind and what qt. size mixer was Tom using for that dough and also what kind of flour?  I know Tom Lehmann is the master of different doughs and I always respect his opinions.

Thanks for sharing your story.  8)

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #708 on: October 03, 2013, 11:47:23 AM »
John,

I think you mentioned that you attended Tom Lehmann's week long pizza production seminar in Manhattan, Kansas before, but I don't recall you posting about how he taught you to do the hen's egg test.  I also don't recall about taking the dough ball the next day and slowly and gently pulling on the dough on all sides and being able to stretch it into the hugest window you have ever seen.  What kind and what qt. size mixer was Tom using for that dough and also what kind of flour?  I know Tom Lehmann is the master of different doughs and I always respect his opinions.

Thanks for sharing your story.  8)

Norma
It was so long ago, I only remember the exciting stuff......BUT...the reason I bring it up is because over the years I've haven't completely understood what undermixed was as is mentioned in the Dough Doctors video.  I always considered that the hen's egg test was fairly developed dough, yet it is considered underdeveloped.  When Peter asked me if I could pull a window using the stretch and fold method...I came fairly close....but then I got to thinking about the experiment Tom showed us in Manhattan.  It was only after a nights fermentation that we could pull a huge window on a dough ball.  So, now I am going to take my observations back about the stretch and fold dough and say it wasn't completely developed....I really had to work to get the window I got.  Does that make any sense??

My inquiring mind would still like to know the real difference in the two mixing methods.  (I'm trying to plant a seed, if you get my drift).  I wonder what would happen if you took a piece of dough halfway through your mixing process and folded it to check on the difference from your end.  Maybe do a hen's egg test after 1 fold to decide if you should do 2??  It's all good eats right??
Thanks Norma

John

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #709 on: October 03, 2013, 02:58:37 PM »
It was so long ago, I only remember the exciting stuff......BUT...the reason I bring it up is because over the years I've haven't completely understood what undermixed was as is mentioned in the Dough Doctors video.  I always considered that the hen's egg test was fairly developed dough, yet it is considered underdeveloped.  When Peter asked me if I could pull a window using the stretch and fold method...I came fairly close....but then I got to thinking about the experiment Tom showed us in Manhattan.  It was only after a nights fermentation that we could pull a huge window on a dough ball.  So, now I am going to take my observations back about the stretch and fold dough and say it wasn't completely developed....I really had to work to get the window I got.  Does that make any sense??

My inquiring mind would still like to know the real difference in the two mixing methods.  (I'm trying to plant a seed, if you get my drift).  I wonder what would happen if you took a piece of dough halfway through your mixing process and folded it to check on the difference from your end.  Maybe do a hen's egg test after 1 fold to decide if you should do 2??  It's all good eats right??
Thanks Norma

John

John,

I think when using the hen's egg test it is a fairly developed dough.  Why do you think it considered a underdeveloped dough when using the hen's egg test?  Of course then the dough has to cold ferment.  I don't think you want to be able to do window pane test after the dough is just mixed.  I really don't know what you mean either about when using the stretch and fold method the dough was not completely developed.  Right after you do a stretch and fold I would not think the dough could even be able do a window pane because the dough would be tighter from doing the stretch and fold.  I can see doing stretch and folds and helping to make a good pizza dough that might be totally different than just mixing, but I am not sure I get your drift.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #710 on: October 04, 2013, 11:59:32 PM »
  Right after you do a stretch and fold I would not think the dough could even be able do a window pane because the dough would be tighter from doing the stretch and fold. 


Norma   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27648.0.html
Check that dough out....stretch and folded and immediately shows signs of a window, it's not perfect!!  So now I'm down to 2 stretch and folds with a 5 minute rest in between...and the dough is developed.  It's intriguing to say the least, and it begs the question...how can 2 simple maneuvers that last 5 seconds do so much to a dough.  The next time you mix dough, would you mind taking a piece out maybe halfway through the mix....and fold it once or twice....and report on what you find?

John

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #711 on: October 05, 2013, 06:57:51 AM »
Norma   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27648.0.html
Check that dough out....stretch and folded and immediately shows signs of a window, it's not perfect!!  So now I'm down to 2 stretch and folds with a 5 minute rest in between...and the dough is developed.  It's intriguing to say the least, and it begs the question...how can 2 simple maneuvers that last 5 seconds do so much to a dough.  The next time you mix dough, would you mind taking a piece out maybe halfway through the mix....and fold it once or twice....and report on what you find?

John


John,

I have been watching your thread and reading it.  I think I learned about the same thing when using Craig's methods, but the rest period was about 7 minutes for me and I did 3 sets of stretch and folds with a rest period before I cut, scaled and balled.  I tried the same thing out yesterday with a Lehmann dough that I am going to take to my friends home today to bake in the Blackstone unit.  If you want to see what my dough and dough balls looked like they are at Reply 230 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26483.msg282281.html#msg282281 (fourth photo down and the following photos).  The bubbles on top of the dough balls did go down after the dough balls were placed in the fridge.  I can bake at higher temperatures in the BS, so it will be interesting for me to see what happens with those dough balls using the stretch and fold method.  What I found interesting about doing those stretch and folds was the dough felt more hydrated than the hydration level really was.  I did not try to see if that dough would window pane though. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #712 on: October 07, 2013, 06:09:30 PM »


My inquiring mind would still like to know the real difference in the two mixing methods.  (I'm trying to plant a seed, if you get my drift).  I wonder what would happen if you took a piece of dough halfway through your mixing process and folded it to check on the difference from your end.  Maybe do a hen's egg test after 1 fold to decide if you should do 2??  It's all good eats right??
Thanks Norma

John

John,

I did some stretch and folds on two dough balls at market today.  I pulled the dough for the two dough balls out of the mixer as soon as it looked mixed enough to do stretch and folds and first left the scaled doughs rest.  The stretch and fold dough balls were left to rest 7 minutes before they were stretched and folded two more times. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #713 on: October 08, 2013, 10:20:43 PM »
John,

My stretch and folds dough balls did not turn out well that were made yesterday.  They were too elastic, but they could be opened.  They did fight me somewhat though.  There was no better oven spring or open crumb.  The doughs that I mixed to the hen's egg test were much better.  I think I had a problem with my yeast in about the last month.  I did not keep it in the fridge and changed to a new bag of yeast on Monday and now my dough balls fermented better.  I was satisfied with the dough balls that were made with the hen's egg test today.  They opened very easily and baked good. 

Now to add another wrench into the picture was when I made those three dough balls to be baked in the Blackstone unit.  They did open easy and they did have the same amount of stretch and folds.  I used a different Lehmann formulation for those, but not that much different.  I did use a different mixing method though.  I added about 2/3 of the flour and slowly added the rest of the flour and then did the stretch and folds just like I did on Monday.  I have no idea if the mix method made the difference.  The one pizza from using the different mixing method did have very good oven spring, was nice and crisp on the bottom crust and somewhat crisp rim crust, but was very moist inside the rim crust.  I don't know if you saw those photos or not.  I think think the higher temperature of the BS did make that pizza better, but I wonder about when to really know to stop stretch and folds or if mix methods really make that much of a difference.

These are photos of the one dough ball and photos of the one pizza today and a photo of the other dough ball starting to be opened. 

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #714 on: October 08, 2013, 11:59:04 PM »
Norma
Thanks for the try....really appreciate it!!!

John

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #715 on: October 09, 2013, 08:59:29 AM »
Norma
Thanks for the try....really appreciate it!!!

John

John,

Anytime.  I think what I did wrong was not use the hen's egg test to know when the dough was developed enough.  I am not sure if less stretch and folds would have produced better results. 

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #716 on: October 09, 2013, 02:51:38 PM »
John,

Anytime.  I think what I did wrong was not use the hen's egg test to know when the dough was developed enough.  I am not sure if less stretch and folds would have produced better results. 

Norma
So Norma,
Are you saying that you are now mixing your doughs longer (as per the hen's egg test), and that you are getting better results than you ever have with this dough?  I've had some really good luck with the folds....I'm down to 2 folds with a 5 minute rest....and I still can't believe how such little work on a dough produces huge results.

John

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #717 on: October 09, 2013, 04:59:22 PM »
So Norma,
Are you saying that you are now mixing your doughs longer (as per the hen's egg test), and that you are getting better results than you ever have with this dough?  I've had some really good luck with the folds....I'm down to 2 folds with a 5 minute rest....and I still can't believe how such little work on a dough produces huge results.

John

John,

Yes, I am doing the hen's egg test on my dough batches for market.  I said in my previous post that something must have been wrong with my IDY.  I would post the photos of yesterdays pizzas with the hen's egg test, but usually my photos don't actually show how brown the rim edges are and I really don't know if I should post them here or on my tomato pie thread. 

What hydration dough and flour are you using for your 2 folds with a 5 minute rest periods?  Also exactly how do you do the stretch and folds?  Maybe I overdid the stretch and folds.  Also aren't you baking at a higher temperature than I am?

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #718 on: October 09, 2013, 07:40:29 PM »
John,

Yes, I am doing the hen's egg test on my dough batches for market.  I said in my previous post that something must have been wrong with my IDY.  I would post the photos of yesterdays pizzas with the hen's egg test, but usually my photos don't actually show how brown the rim edges are and I really don't know if I should post them here or on my tomato pie thread. 

What hydration dough and flour are you using for your 2 folds with a 5 minute rest periods?  Also exactly how do you do the stretch and folds?  Maybe I overdid the stretch and folds.  Also aren't you baking at a higher temperature than I am?

Norma
Right now working with 64%.....the folds aren't major....I'm not tugging very hard!!!  The difference in dough after the first fold and 5 minute rest is absolutely amazing to me.  I also noticed in my side by side experiments, that the folded dough sat up higher in my container coming out of the fridge....and I also noticed I had to let it sit out longer as to open easily.  I've been baking at 530 to 560 degrees as of late.
I've also noticed, that if I fold a dough (instead of a reball), I just let it sit out about 5 hours and ferment, it is then perfect to open up and bake.  Anyway, more experimenting for this guy to do Norma!!!  Best wishes.
John

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #719 on: October 09, 2013, 10:23:49 PM »
Right now working with 64%.....the folds aren't major....I'm not tugging very hard!!!  The difference in dough after the first fold and 5 minute rest is absolutely amazing to me.  I also noticed in my side by side experiments, that the folded dough sat up higher in my container coming out of the fridge....and I also noticed I had to let it sit out longer as to open easily.  I've been baking at 530 to 560 degrees as of late.
I've also noticed, that if I fold a dough (instead of a reball), I just let it sit out about 5 hours and ferment, it is then perfect to open up and bake.  Anyway, more experimenting for this guy to do Norma!!!  Best wishes.
John

John,

Thanks for telling what hydration you are now working with, about the folds and your oven temps.  I left the second stretch and fold dough ball sit out a long time to see if it would open easier, but it didn't.  Maybe my method of 3 stretch and folds were too much or I did not stretch and fold right.  Maybe if I remember I will try your method on one dough ball on Monday to see if I can get anywhere near you results.

Norma
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