the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market

[norma427]

After a couple of weeks of experimenting with the preferment Lehmann dough and the regular Lehmann dough pizzas. and my customers and my taste testers telling me they couldn’t tell the difference from my preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and the regular Lehmann dough pizzas I was making, I decided to try the regular Lehmann dough again for market again.  I started out with the regular Lehmann dough for market.

As I posted in Reply 940 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg175315.html#msg175315 and Reply 984 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg177357.html#msg177357 in the Lehmann dough thread I tried Steve’s formulation and did like it.  Since then I have made some Lehmann doughs and preferment Lehmann doughs to let my taste testers and customers taste to see if they could tell the difference.

I sure don’t know how the switch will be, or if I will go back to the preferment Lehmann dough.  The preferment Lehmann dough seems like an old friend of mine since I have used it for about 2 years.  I hate to leave an old friend that gave me such good mileage. 

The regular Lehmann dough is easier to make and saves me a little time.  I think I will be able to either change the yeast amount or the final dough temperature to be able to make the same dough consistently though out the changing temperatures of market during the course of different seasons, but I am not sure. 

I did make two different Lehmann doughs for yesterday with one having a little less oil in the formulation.  Really, no differences could be told with using a little bit less oil.  I might tweak the formulation of percentage of oil more in the next couple of weeks with a test batch of dough. 

The Lehmann dough pizzas did seem to have good oven spring, decent browning on the rim crust, and decent bottom crust browning.  The Lehmann dough also did seem to make a decent Greek style pizza, cheesy bread sticks, pizza pinwheels and garlic knots.  The reheat of the slices and holding the pizzas in the heated cabinet also went well.

I only took a couple of pictures of the Lehmann dough pizzas yesterday along with one Greek pizza. 

I will update this thread as needed.

Steve had asked me to help make pizzas at his church on Thursday and has told me he modified the Lehmann dough more.  I will see how those pies bake and look on Thursday.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[TXCraig1]

Great looking pies as always, Norma.

With respect to your preferment quandry, before I got into sougdoughs, I spent quite a bit of time mesing with baker's yeast preferments, and I can't say I ever made a pie that I thought was meaningfully more flavorful or (better in any other way) than a pie made with yeast straight out of the jar, AOTBE.

CL

[norma427]

Great looking pies as always, Norma.

With respect to your preferment quandry, before I got into sougdoughs, I spent quite a bit of time mesing with baker's yeast preferments, and I can't say I ever made a pie that I thought was meaningfully more flavorful or (better in any other way) than a pie made with yeast straight out of the jar, AOTBE.

CL

Craig,

Thanks for your nice comment!

I respect your experiments and find it interesting that you didn’t get a more flavorful/or better pie in any way using a preferment.  Thanks for telling me your about your experiments. 

Norma

[Glutenboy]

I'm sure I'm not quite as accomplished as Craig, but I've tried preferments and feel the same way.  Here's my personal theory on the subject.  The flavor resulting from long fermentation is a product of the components of the flour being metabolized by yeast and bacteria.  If only part of the flour is getting this extended exposure, why will this enhance the flavor more than a long counter rise or a lengthy refrigeration with a fully-made dough?  I know it looks bubbly and smells good, but doesn't it stand to reason that the longer the entire dough ferments, the more fully the elements of taste will develop?  This is not something I've really read anywhere; it's just my thought process, and it seems to hold true in my experience.  Does it make sense to you?

[Ev]

Makes sense to me!

[norma427]

I'm sure I'm not quite as accomplished as Craig, but I've tried preferments and feel the same way.  Here's my personal theory on the subject.  The flavor resulting from long fermentation is a product of the components of the flour being metabolized by yeast and bacteria.  If only part of the flour is getting this extended exposure, why will this enhance the flavor more than a long counter rise or a lengthy refrigeration with a fully-made dough?  I know it looks bubbly and smells good, but doesn't it stand to reason that the longer the entire dough ferments, the more fully the elements of taste will develop?  This is not something I've really read anywhere; it's just my thought process, and it seems to hold true in my experience.  Does it make sense to you?

Glutenboy,

Thanks for your additional comments.  I am thinking I agree more with you and Craig all the time on trying a preferment in relationship to a straight dough and just fermenting it longer for better taste in the crust.  I wish I could do a longer ferment at market, but with the rules and regulations it would be too hard.  Since my customers and taste testers really can’t tell the difference in the taste of my pizzas so far, I wonder how much time and trouble Peter and I went though to be able to produce the preferment Lehmann dough. 

Your comments and theories do make sense to me.

Norma   

[norma427]

Makes sense to me!

Steve,

Thanks!  I know you tried the preferment Lehmann dough at least one time at home and I also gave you dough balls to take home and you told me you really couldn't tell the differences in the tastes of the final pizzas.  Maybe I should have changed a long while ago.  You, as one person knows how I like to taste different tastes in each pizza crust. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma's situation is unique. She is permitted access to her market pizza stall only on Monday through Friday. She is not permitted to do anything with her dough off premises. She has to do everything on premises. She only makes pizza on Tuesdays, from about 8:30AM to about 8:30PM.

At the time that Norma decided to sell pizza at market, she had several possible options. For example, she could have made a cold fermented dough on Friday and used it about four days later (on Tuesday). Another possibility would have been to make a one-day cold fermented dough on Monday for use on Tuesday. I suppose she could also have made a one-day ambient temperature fermented dough, but the temperatures at market vary dramatically over the course of the year. After having tried a basic Lehmann NY style dough and found it wanting, she asked for help with something that would be better. I stepped forward and, shortly thereafter, the preferment Lehmann dough formulation was born. Ideally, it would have been nice to have used a poolish or similar preferment that was prefermented in the classic way, using small amounts of commercial yeast and a long prefermentation period at ambient temperature, or at a controlled temperature if that was possible. However, Norma was at the mercy of market temperatures and that ruled out a room temperature prefermentation (and a normal room temperature fermentation as well). The same conditions ruled out the use of natural starters and preferments. What we ultimately came up with was a poolish that was elaborated with a fair amount of flour, starting on Friday, and then cold fermented over the weekend until Monday, when she could go back to market to make the final dough. That dough would be cold fermented for use on Tuesday.

Preferments are like anything else. Some people like them and some don't. Some could do better with their preferments, but most people don't really understand them all that well, and even how they differ from each other (e.g., poolish vs. sponge vs. bigas vs old dough, etc.), and how to best use them. There are right ways to use preferments and there are wrong ways. All too often, people just make up their own preferments, and wonder why they don't work. I have always felt that it was a good idea to learn about preferments before using them. And, in that regard, I was fortunate to find articles about preferments that were written by Didier Rosada, formerly of the San Francisco Baking Institute. Those article can usually be found in the archives of the Wayback Machine at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.

Even among professionals, preferments are uncommon. Other than Norma, the only professionals that I can think off offhand that use preferments are Brian Spangler of Apizza Scholls, Tom Douglas of Serious Pie, Anthony Mangieri of UPN and, apparently, Chris Bianco of Pizzeria Bianco.

Now, Norma is apparently at a crossroads. And I don't blame her for wanting to get out from under prefermented doughs if she can do so and meet the expectations of her customers. But the rules at market do not give her a lot of latitude. Unless she is able to control temperatures of fermentation, she realistically is left with a one-day cold fermented dough, made on Monday for use on Tuesday, or a four-day cold fermented dough, made on Friday for use on Tuesday. Or she could make and use frozen dough balls. I am sure that all of these options can be used successfully, and none would be unusual. In a pinch, where her doughs are unusable for some reason, she could make an emergency dough.

I am relying strictly on memory so Norma can correct me if I misstated anything about the rules at market and how they affect her.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma's situation is unique. She is permitted access to her market pizza stall only on Monday through Friday. She is not permitted to do anything with her dough off premises. She has to do everything on premises. She only makes pizza on Tuesdays, from about 8:30AM to about 8:30PM.

At the time that Norma decided to sell pizza at market, she had several possible options. For example, she could have made a cold fermented dough on Friday and used it about four days later (on Tuesday). Another possibility would have been to make a one-day cold fermented dough on Monday for use on Tuesday. I suppose she could also have made a one-day ambient temperature fermented dough, but the temperatures at market vary dramatically over the course of the year. After having tried a basic Lehmann NY style dough and found it wanting, she asked for help with something that would be better. I stepped forward and, shortly thereafter, the preferment Lehmann dough formulation was born. Ideally, it would have been nice to have used a poolish or similar preferment that was prefermented in the classic way, using small amounts of commercial yeast and a long prefermentation period at ambient temperature, or at a controlled temperature if that was possible. However, Norma was at the mercy of market temperatures and that ruled out a room temperature prefermentation (and a normal room temperature fermentation as well). The same conditions ruled out the use of natural starters and preferments. What we ultimately came up with was a poolish that was elaborated with a fair amount of flour, starting on Friday, and then cold fermented over the weekend until Monday, when she could go back to market to make the final dough. That dough would be cold fermented for use on Tuesday.

Preferments are like anything else. Some people like them and some don't. Some could do better with their preferments, but most people don't really understand them all that well, and even how they differ from each other (e.g., poolish vs. sponge vs. bigas vs old dough, etc.), and how to best use them. There are right ways to use preferments and there are wrong ways. All too often, people just make up their own preferments, and wonder why they don't work. I have always felt that it was a good idea to learn about preferments before using them. And, in that regard, I was fortunate to find articles about preferments that were written by Didier Rosada, formerly of the San Francisco Baking Institute. Those article can usually be found in the archives of the Wayback Machine at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.

Even among professionals, preferments are uncommon. Other than Norma, the only professionals that I can think off offhand that use preferments are Brian Spangler of Apizza Scholls, Tom Douglas of Serious Pie, Anthony Mangieri of UPN and, apparently, Chris Bianco of Pizzeria Bianco.

Now, Norma is apparently at a crossroads. And I don't blame her for wanting to get out from under prefermented doughs if she can do so and meet the expectations of her customers. But the rules at market do not give her a lot of latitude. Unless she is able to control temperatures of fermentation, she realistically is left with a one-day cold fermented dough, made on Monday for use on Tuesday, or a four-day cold fermented dough, made on Friday for use on Tuesday. Or she could make and use frozen dough balls. I am sure that all of these options can be used successfully, and none would be unusual. In a pinch, where her doughs are unusable for some reason, she could make an emergency dough.

I am relying strictly on memory so Norma can correct me if I misstated anything about the rules at market and how they affect her.

Peter

Peter,

You are correct on everything you posted.  I appreciate all the assistance you have given me and all the time it has taken you to try and make a better market dough for me to try.  It has been a fairly long road and now to come back to the beginning is kind of frustrating for me. It is something like taking a journey to really find out about something and coming back almost empty handed. I have always wanted to produce a better pizza for market as you know.  It seems like everything that I have tried either doesn’t work out because of market rules and restrictions, or temperature changes at market.  I sure wish there was something else I could try, but at this time really don’t know what to do.  To try a four day fermented dough would mean I would need to keep my pizza prep fridge on besides my deli case.  I really don’t want to do that because of electric bills.  When I freeze any doughs they are okay, but not exactly like when they are not frozen.  I can tell the difference in how the pizzas look from frozen doughs, but the pizzas taste the same.

Using a preferment can also present some challenges in dough elasticity and extensibility.  Some times my preferment Lehmann doughs were easier to open than other times.  I have tried to keep my mix times and final dough temperatures the same, but still sometimes the dough can act different.  Why that was I sure don’t know. 

If you ever think of another way to improve on my market pizzas I sure wish you would share with me what that might be.  Until then, I guess I am stuck at a straight one day cold fermented dough for market pizzas.  Since I am not a high class pizzeria maybe it doesn’t even really matter.

Thanks for all of your assistance and the links about preferment for anyone that is interested! 

Norma

[Ev]

Actually, Norma, yours is a "high class" pizzeria, at least as far as the product is concerned, and you have many people tell you that every week. Personally, I'd rather see you go back to the tried and true preferment formula(persnickety though it may be) than to see your pizza suffer at the hands of a mere 24 hr. cold ferment.
Nobody knows better than I; There's nothing better than Normas' pizza, fresh from the oven!

[norma427]

Actually, Norma, yours is a "high class" pizzeria, at least as far as the product is concerned, and you have many people tell you that every week. Personally, I'd rather see you go back to the tried and true preferment formula(persnickety though it may be) than to see your pizza suffer at the hands of a mere 24 hr. cold ferment.
Nobody knows better than I; There's nothing better than Normas' pizza, fresh from the oven!

Steve,

Thanks for your kind comments.  I know many customers tell me that they like my pizzas, but I guess I had hoped that at least one customer would have asked me if I changed the dough in any way because the pizzas tasted different.  As you know not one person told me so far that my pizzas taste different. 

As you also know I am still undecided on what to do.  The little extra time for the preferment is nothing, but if it really doesn’t make a better pizza than what I am fooling around with it for.  Even Kim doesn’t notice the difference and he also has liked the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas for a long while.  I am beginning to think that the sauce and cheese helps to make the pizzas taste the same.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

People often tout the benefits of the flavor and textural contributions of preferments, but what is often overlooked is the way that preferments shorten production time. For example, bakers will often prepare preferments so that they preferment overnight while their bakeries are closed. That way, when the baker shows up at 4:00AM to make the final dough (or whatever time the baker reports to work), the only remaining activity is the final mix. A good part of the heavy lifting was done by the preferment, so the production time is fairly short. Even Professor Calvel, in his book The Taste of Bread (at page 46), measures the production time for prefermented doughs from the time of the final mix, not from the time that the preferment is prepared. I might add that some bakeries even have special sections reserved for preferments, and some of those areas are temperature controlled for quality control purposes. In your case, whether you thought about it or not, your production time was shortened because of the use of the preferment, and you also got the flavor and textural benefits of the preferment.

However, the above is arguably moot if in your case your taste testers and customers cannot tell the difference between your preferment Lehmann crust and and a one-day crust. I agree with you that the sauce, cheese and toppings that you have been using play a major role in customers' perception of your pizzas. And, to your credit, you are using quality flours, sauces, cheeses and toppings. The challenge is to see if you can find ways to improve upon a one-day Lehmann dough without having to resort to using a preferment. One thought that occurs to me is to consider using a flour, bromated or not, that has a lower protein content than the KASL (or other high-gluten flours) that you have using, especially since you don't need the fermentation tolerance of a high-gluten flour for a one-day dough. The dough would be along the lines of classic (pre-1970's) NY style doughs that used lower protein flours before high-gluten flours became popular for making NY style pizzas. If there are particular features of the finished crust you are after, there may be ways of achieving them as part of your formulation, through the use of oil and/or sugars. Beyond these kinds of changes, you are left with steps that might be taken to improve or enhance the flavor of your crust, such as using garlic or onion powders as part of the crust, using sweeteners such as honey or malt or molasses, adding small amounts of other flours, creating your own signature sauce or cheese blend, etc.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

People often tout the benefits of the flavor and textural contributions of preferments, but what is often overlooked is the way that preferments shorten production time. For example, bakers will often prepare preferments so that they preferment overnight while their bakeries are closed. That way, when the baker shows up at 4:00AM to make the final dough (or whatever time the baker reports to work), the only remaining activity is the final mix. A good part of the heavy lifting was done by the preferment, so the production time is fairly short. Even Professor Calvel, in his book The Taste of Bread (at page 46), measures the production time for prefermented doughs from the time of the final mix, not from the time that the preferment is prepared. I might add that some bakeries even have special sections reserved for preferments, and some of those areas are temperature controlled for quality control purposes. In your case, whether you thought about it or not, your production time was shortened because of the use of the preferment, and you also got the flavor and textural benefits of the preferment.

However, the above is arguably moot if in your case your taste testers and customers cannot tell the difference between your preferment Lehmann crust and and a one-day crust. I agree with you that the sauce, cheese and toppings that you have been using play a major role in customers' perception of your pizzas. And, to your credit, you are using quality flours, sauces, cheeses and toppings. The challenge is to see if you can find ways to improve upon a one-day Lehmann dough without having to resort to using a preferment. One thought that occurs to me is to consider using a flour, bromated or not, that has a lower protein content than the KASL (or other high-gluten flours) that you have using, especially since you don't need the fermentation tolerance of a high-gluten flour for a one-day dough. The dough would be along the lines of classic (pre-1970's) NY style doughs that used lower protein flours before high-gluten flours became popular for making NY style pizzas. If there are particular features of the finished crust you are after, there may be ways of achieving them as part of your formulation, through the use of oil and/or sugars. Beyond these kinds of changes, you are left with steps that might be taken to improve or enhance the flavor of your crust, such as using garlic or onion powders as part of the crust, using sweeteners such as honey or malt or molasses, adding small amounts of other flours, creating your own signature sauce or cheese blend, etc.

Peter

Peter,

I never thought of the use of preferments in the way you explained in your post pertaining to the preferment doing the heavy lifting so the final mix and cold ferment might be shorter.  I wonder how much more flavor I really did get from the preferment when my customers and taste testers haven’t been able to tell any differences so far.  Sometimes, when I was making a few batches of dough from the same container of preferment I would add the water before the final mix and the preferment with the water and the mixture would just look cloudy and the preferment would become limp.  The preferment and water would only sit for a little while.  That made me wonder how that mixture could actually make the dough and resulting pizza taste better.  I have been pondering that over for a long while.

What would the challenge be to use a lower protein flour that is bromated or not?  Would it be to make a better tasting pizza in one day?.  I always was interested in trying to be able make a pre-1970’s NY style pizza, something like before high-gluten flours came along.  What kind of flour would you recommend and also what kind of formulation would you think I could try for a pre-1970’s NY style pizza?  I also never thought about not needing a high-gluten flour for a one-day dough.  I really can’t ever remember tasting a NY style pizza that might have tasted like a pre-1970’s.  Do you know what the characteristics of that kind of pizza might be like?  I am always in for any kind of challenge to see if I can make a better tasting NY style pizza, so if you can think of anything, let me know.  I wouldn’t mind trying bromated flour or non bromated flour with a lower protein. 

Norma

[TXCraig1]

Actually, Norma, yours is a "high class" pizzeria, at least as far as the product is concerned, and you have many people tell you that every week. Personally, I'd rather see you go back to the tried and true preferment formula(persnickety though it may be) than to see your pizza suffer at the hands of a mere 24 hr. cold ferment.
Nobody knows better than I; There's nothing better than Normas' pizza, fresh from the oven!

Cheers!

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Sometimes people cannot fit room temperature preferments into their schedules or operations, so they might instead use a preferment that is prefermented in a cooler or refrigerator. Terry Deane once described one such preferment (a poolish) at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7385.msg63694.html#msg63694. In his case, he used the poolish the next day. In your case, you get several days, which should permit more biochemical activity. Ideally, you want to strike a balance between the amount of the poolish, the amount of yeast, and the method (room temperature or cold prefermentation) and duration of prefermentation. All else being equal, if you frontload the poolish with too much flour and yeast, you may end up with very good crust flavors but you may have excessive acid production that penalizes extensibility (the dough will be too strong, with elastic tendencies). If you put too little into the poolish and backload the final mix, you may end up with less crust flavor but better extensibility. Usually these kinds of conflicts are resolved by baking tests. Unfortunately, we don't have the right tools on the forum to crank out all kinds of test scenarios.

What I was thinking of in terms of a flour with a reduced protein content is something along the lines that scott123 has talked about on the forum. Maybe a flour in the 12.5-13% range. Such a flour would produce a crust that is softer and less chewy than a high-gluten crust. It will also have a bit less color and taste because of the reduced amount of protein. But the crust color and texture and taste will be closer to the classic NY style dough that was made before high-gluten flour started to be used to make NY style pizzas. The hydration can be whatever you can handle in your Hobart mixer and also when opening up the dough balls. Usually, I start with the rated absorption value of the flour used but it can be higher or lower based on experience, and also your oven. The old timers routinely used hydration values of around 65%. The rest of the ingredient values, like the amounts of salt, and oil and sugar, if used, tend to be based to a large degree on personal preferences. Oil and sugar were introduced into NY style doughs about the time deck ovens became commercial. The type of yeast and yeast quantity should be selected to achieve the desired lift in the dough after one day of cold fermentation. That will depend on part on the season and related temperatures. I would strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. I'm sure I am preaching to the choir on these aspects, given your proven proficiency in making all kinds of doughs.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

What specific flour do you have in mind in the 12.5-13% range that I might have access to?  Would it be a bromated flour?  I ready don’t think I  understand what you might be posting about because I don’t think my Lehmann crust or my preferment Lehmann crust are chewy in my opinion and the crust is also soft in my opinion.  I really don’t understand enough about what will be closer to the classic NY style dough made before high-gluten flour.  I think I can handle almost any hydration but worry about high a higher hydration dough will fit into using plastic bags to cold ferment.  I don’t think I ever tried to cold ferment dough balls in plastic bags in the 65% range.  I am not proficient at all on the kind of dough you are posting about.

Maybe I am confused on what you are trying to tell me.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

When I was talking about the medium-strength flours in relation to high-gluten flour, I was speaking generally, with an emphasis on the gradations in crust characteristics and features (including textural effects), flavor and color that one can reasonably expect going from a high-gluten flour to a slightly less strong flour. Had I also mentioned all-purpose flour, which was also used for classic NY style pizzas before high-gluten flour gained popularity, the same gradations of crust characteristics and features could be expected in relation to the stronger flours.

With respect to the classic New York style, I was guided in my thinking mainly by Evelyne Slomon who discussed that topic on occasion on the forum, including at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg37081/topicseen.html#msg37081 and at Reply 47 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3489.msg31563/topicseen.html#msg31563. In reviewing the list of flours that you have used for your pizza making, including those as given at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg177835.html#msg177835, some possibilities for a classic NY style might be the Power flour, the Occident flour, the KABF flour, the Mondako flour, and the Better for Bread flour. Evelyne reported that she used the Hecker's (Ceresota) flour, which is essentially an all-purpose flour with above average protein content. Another possible choice not mentioned above might be the Gold Medal Full Strength flour (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FULL%20STRENGTH%20ENR%20MT.pdf). You may have already formed opinions on the suitability of the above flours and, if so, that is good since that helps weed out those flours that you do not like or do not think perform well for your purposes.

As I mentioned earlier, you now find yourself at a crossroads. Whenever I see or hear the word "crossroads", I am reminded of the old Woody Allen joke:

More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.

I'm hoping that there is a second choice for you to have available for the NY style at market.

Peter