Author Topic: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market  (Read 72481 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2012, 11:10:04 AM »
This is the formulation I used for the first attempt at a pre-1970ís NY style pizza.  I used the Occident bleached and bromated flour. I did use IDY in the formulation because if these pizzas ever turn out right, IDY will be easier for me to use. I mixed the dough in my Kitchen Aid mixer and mixed for 8 minutes.  When the dough ball was formed it looked like the cottage cheese stage. I did use the ďpoppy seedĒ trick and also wrote down what time the dough ball went into the fridge.  The final dough temperature was  75.0 degrees F.

I did call the Country Store this morning and the owner of the Country Store told me they sell the Occident flour in the bleached and unbleached versions.  I guess I didnít look hard enough at the Occident flours before and just picked up the bleached and bromated one, because they have so many flours at the Country Store.  Should I purchase some of the Occident unbleached for my next attempt? 

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2012, 11:10:56 AM »
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2012, 11:21:46 AM »
I did call the Country Store this morning and the owner of the Country Store told me they sell the Occident flour in the bleached and unbleached versions.  I guess I didnít look hard enough at the Occident flours before and just picked up the bleached and bromated one, because they have so many flours at the Country Store.  Should I purchase some of the Occident unbleached for my next attempt? 

Norma,

At this point, let's go with the bleached version of the Occident flour since the old NY style pizza doughs were made with bleached flours mostly. You can later decide whether you want to try the unbleached version.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2012, 12:00:01 PM »
Norma,

At this point, let's go with the bleached version of the Occident flour since the old NY style pizza doughs were made with bleached flours mostly. You can later decide whether you want to try the unbleached version.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for letting me know to go with the bleached bromated Occident flour for now.  I guess I didnít know old style NY style pizzas were made with bleached flours mostly.  I have a lot to learn about old style NY pizzas.

Norma

Offline franko9752

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 02:54:30 PM »
Wow Pete and Norma, you guys are pizza scientists! Really enjoy your experiments. I have at times used 24hr cold ferment with my pizza gig 3 nights a week. I usually make my dough Sun. afternoon for Tues. night cooking and have leftovers for Wed. night cooking, depending on sales i make more dough on Tues. night for Thurs. night cook. I have had to make dough the night before and it worked out ok but prefer at least a 2 day cold ferment. I use a standard Lehmans N.Y. style. Have been playing around with sugar and oil quite a bit, sometimes no oil or suger and sometimes only oil and no sugar etc. I am currently using AllTrumps(both bromated and nonbromated), 58% water, .3% SAF IDY,2% salt and 1.5% oil. I cook at 550 deg. I have not seen any difference by using sugar and not using it so far. Not sure about the oil either. I have tried not using sugar or oil but still looking for the difference. My next batch will be just flour, IDY, salt and water to keep it simple, if that works fine then i will keep it like that for simplicity. The last time that i only used flour, water, IDY and salt i think i had no difference there too but will see next batch. With all formulations used my crusts taste good to me but am trying to fine tune my tastebuds to see if the diff ingredients mean anything.....Norma and Pete, to me you both are high class pizza people.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 03:01:14 PM by franko9752 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2012, 04:08:31 PM »
franko9752,

Thank you for the nice compliments. Norma and I have been willing accomplices since about the time she joined the forum. Her inquisitive mind and her endless energy and enormous capacity for work have kept me on my toes, and my fingers on the calculator and on the computer keyboard. I have learned and done things that would not have happened if it weren't for Norma. She is one in million. And her buddy Steve (Ev) ain't too shabby either ;D.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 04:14:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline communist

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2012, 07:01:51 PM »
I may be able to get to Root's tomorrow Norma.  What time do pizzas start coming out of the oven?  Mark

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2012, 07:21:37 PM »
franko9752,

Thank you also for your nice compliments!  :) If it wasnít for Peter and other members of this forum I would not have gotten anywhere, because my math is really poor.  I just like to experiment to see what happens.  I think somewhere is a former life I must have been a scientist that somehow lost how to do the math.  :-D Seriously, I think I get the experimenting part from my dad.  He was always a tinker and inventor.  Peter has been like Thelma and I am like Louise.  He keeps us from going off the cliff.  ;D

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2012, 07:26:46 PM »
franko9752,

Thank you for the nice compliments. Norma and I have been willing accomplices since about the time she joined the forum. Her inquisitive mind and her endless energy and enormous capacity for work have kept me on my toes, and my fingers on the calculator and on the computer keyboard. I have learned and done things that would not have happened if it weren't for Norma. She is one in million. And her buddy Steve (Ev) ain't too shabby either ;D.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you also for your kind words.  :)  Sorry to have you on your toes, fingers on the calculator and also on the keyboard so much.  :-[ You also have gotten me to do things I never dreamed of doing before and I appreciate that.

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2012, 07:29:12 PM »
I may be able to get to Root's tomorrow Norma.  What time do pizzas start coming out of the oven?  Mark

Mark,

Great if you can come to Root's tomorrow.  :)  I would love to meet you.  The pizzas start coming out of the oven about 9:30-10:00 am.  Steve gets to market about 12:00 pm.  If you want to play with the dough, you are more than welcome.  The experiments usually go on in the afternoon if you want to try them.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2012, 07:34:05 PM »
I keep the experimental old NY style dough ball at home so I could watch how it cold ferments until tomorrow.  After 8 hours the ďpoppy seedĒ test measures almost 1 Ĺ ď.  I donít know if the dough is fermenting to fast or not.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2012, 07:42:34 PM »
I keep the experimental old NY style dough ball at home so I could watch how it cold ferments until tomorrow.  After 8 hours the ďpoppy seedĒ test measures almost 1 Ĺ ď.  I donít know if the dough is fermenting to fast or not.

Norma,

Can you tell me what kind of container you are using to store the dough ball? The 1 1/2" spacing would suggest a tripling of the volume of the dough. Is that confirmed visually?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2012, 08:11:51 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell me what kind of container you are using to store the dough ball? The 1 1/2" spacing would suggest a tripling of the volume of the dough. Is that confirmed visually?

Peter

Peter,

The container is a plastic Rubbermaid container that says on the bottom 6.2 cups or 1.4 L.  I used my small scale to do the measurement for the IDY, so that was accurate.  I didnít take the dough ball out of the fridge except to take the pictures since right after the ball last evening.  This is another picture I just took of how the sides and bottom of dough ball look in the container of the old NY style dough ball fermenting.  Do you think it is fermenting too fast?  It sure looks like it is to me.  The dough ball does look like it might have almost tripled in volume.

Norma

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2012, 08:34:34 PM »
Norma,

If you confirmed visually what the seed spacing is indicating, then it is quite possible that the dough has tripled. I thought perhaps that you were using one of your food-grade storage bags.

I'm surprised that your dough has expanded as fast as it has with the yeast at 0.55%. Did you go to the refrigerator right after the dough was made? A tripling of the dough is not fatal but we don't want it to get out of hand. Let's see what happens when you are ready to use the dough tomorrow. You may not need much of a temper time, and we can always make adjustment to the yeast quantity next time if called for based on your results.

Peter

Offline franko9752

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2012, 09:00:29 PM »
Peter,

The container is a plastic Rubbermaid container that says on the bottom 6.2 cups or 1.4 L.  I used my small scale to do the measurement for the IDY, so that was accurate.  I didnít take the dough ball out of the fridge except to take the pictures since right after the ball last evening.  This is another picture I just took of how the sides and bottom of dough ball look in the container of the old NY style dough ball fermenting.  Do you think it is fermenting too fast?  It sure looks like it is to me.  The dough ball does look like it might have almost tripled in volume.

Norma
Maybe you may be on your way to a good 1 day cold fermenting dough with that kind of rise. Maybe a bit less yeast next time? I am no pro but i have not yet used a .55% yeast in my dough, even for a 1 day cold ferment. The highest i used yet is .35%. I am thinking though that for my next 1 day cold ferment using .4%. The last time i used a 1 day ferment i used .35 idy and 85deg dough out of the mixer and that seemed to work ok. I have been making extra dough for the 2-3 day ferment so i haven't needed a 1day ferment latley.

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2012, 09:09:21 PM »
Norma,

If you confirmed visually what the seed spacing is indicating, then it is quite possible that the dough has tripled. I thought perhaps that you were using one of your food-grade storage bags.

I'm surprised that your dough has expanded as fast as it has with the yeast at 0.55%. Did you go to the refrigerator right after the dough was made? A tripling of the dough is not fatal but we don't want it to get out of hand. Let's see what happens when you are ready to use the dough tomorrow. You may not need much of a temper time, and we can always make adjustment to the yeast quantity next time if called for based on your results.

Peter


Peter,

I donít use the food grade bags until I think whatever I am experimenting with might be okay for a 5 dough ball batch at market, and then I only do a couple in food grade bags to see how that works out.

The dough was 75 degrees F right off the hook in the mixer, then I balled right away and it went right into the fridge.  I just purchased a new fridge for home 2 weeks ago, so I donít think it is my fridge that is making the dough ferment too fast.  The other picture I posted with the thermometer shows how soft the dough looked, then when I balled the dough it looked like cottage cheese.  Maybe I need to bring my IR gun home from market and see what temperature my new fridge is.  I had thought for a one day cold ferment 0.55% IDY wouldnít make the dough ferment that much in such a short time.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2012, 09:12:06 PM »
Maybe you may be on your way to a good 1 day cold fermenting dough with that kind of rise. Maybe a bit less yeast next time? I am no pro but i have not yet used a .55% yeast in my dough, even for a 1 day cold ferment. The highest i used yet is .35%. I am thinking though that for my next 1 day cold ferment using .4%. The last time i used a 1 day ferment i used .35 idy and 85deg dough out of the mixer and that seemed to work ok. I have been making extra dough for the 2-3 day ferment so i haven't needed a 1day ferment latley.

franco9752,

Thank you for the suggestion. Normally, I would use and recommend less yeast but I have seen reports recently by members on the forum who have been having problems with their Lehmann NY style doughs not rising enough with one-day cold ferments. I also thought that perhaps it was a lot cooler where Norma is than where I am, where it has been quite hot (85-90 degrees F the past two days). That is the reason why I asked Norma to monitor the expansion of the dough she made. Actually, I would rather overshoot the mark than undershoot it. I think it is easier to make the adjustment that way. 

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2012, 09:16:53 PM »
Maybe you may be on your way to a good 1 day cold fermenting dough with that kind of rise. Maybe a bit less yeast next time? I am no pro but i have not yet used a .55% yeast in my dough, even for a 1 day cold ferment. The highest i used yet is .35%. I am thinking though that for my next 1 day cold ferment using .4%. The last time i used a 1 day ferment i used .35 idy and 85deg dough out of the mixer and that seemed to work ok. I have been making extra dough for the 2-3 day ferment so i haven't needed a 1day ferment latley.

franko9752,

I really donít know why the dough ball would be fermenting that fast.  I have used even a little more IDY for a one day ferment and it seemed work out okay before.  I sure donít know if it might be the lower protein flour with the decent amount of hydration that might be making the dough ball ferment faster.  The IDY might need to be adjusted.  I try to have my final dough temperatures around 70-75 degrees F. 

Thanks for explaining how you amounts of IDY have worked for you.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2012, 06:35:18 AM »
Last evening I kept watching how the old NY style dough ball was fermenting and I thought it was fermenting too fast because bubbles were starting to form on the top of dough ball.  I didnít think about it before, but got the idea to use my digital candy thermometer to put into my fridge and the temperature in my fridge was too high.  I adjusted the temperature before I went to bed and this morning the dough ball doesnít look like it is fermenting much more.  I guess when the guys came to bring my new fridge and set it up, they didnít set the temperature right.  I just thought when they set the dial in my fridge they knew what they were doing.  Now the temperature in the fridge is 39 degrees F.  From what I have now observed, I donít think it was anything I did wrong, but was the fridges temperature that was making the dough ball ferment too fast.  Hopefully, the dough ball wonít ferment a lot more today before I try to open it and make it into a pizza.

Picture of the dough ball last evening with the measuring device before I checked the temperature of the fridge.

Norma

Offline franko9752

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2012, 09:23:15 AM »
I use a pretty good refridgerator thermometer that stands upright in my fridge and usually put about 20 doughballs in from my Sun. mix for Tues. cook and have to turn the fridge colder to keep the temp. under 40deg. and a few hours later i have to turn the fridge warmer again to keep it above freezing as the dough cools. Then i usually try to keep the temp at about 36 or 38 deg. Hoping i am doing this right?

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2012, 09:27:52 PM »
I use a pretty good refridgerator thermometer that stands upright in my fridge and usually put about 20 doughballs in from my Sun. mix for Tues. cook and have to turn the fridge colder to keep the temp. under 40deg. and a few hours later i have to turn the fridge warmer again to keep it above freezing as the dough cools. Then i usually try to keep the temp at about 36 or 38 deg. Hoping i am doing this right?

franko9752,

It sounds like you are using good fridge temperatures to ferment your dough balls  The dough balls at market cold ferment at about the same temperatures as yours does.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2012, 09:30:33 PM »
The pre-1970ís dough ball attempt went okay today.  The dough ball did ferment a little bit more while in the pizza prep fridge, but not like it was fermenting too fast yesterday.  The dough ball left out room temperature to warm-up for about an hour and the dough ball was used about 27 hours after mixing.  The dough ball was easy to open and the pizza baked well.  My taste testers and I did like the texture of the of the crumb and how the bottom baked somewhat crispy, but the taste testers and I do like the Lehmann dough better.  I donít know why, but the crust didnít taste salty enough.  It tasted rather bland.  One of my later customers that likes the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and the 24 hr Lehmann dough pizzas, said the crust tasted like cardboard, but then he ate a reheated slice after it sat for a few hours.  We didnít taste any of the slices, except for right after the bake.

This is a video of Steve slicing the pizza with a pizza cutter.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2012, 09:31:33 PM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2012, 09:32:30 PM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2012, 09:33:23 PM »
Norma


 

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