the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market

[norma427]

Norma,

If you confirmed visually what the seed spacing is indicating, then it is quite possible that the dough has tripled. I thought perhaps that you were using one of your food-grade storage bags.

I'm surprised that your dough has expanded as fast as it has with the yeast at 0.55%. Did you go to the refrigerator right after the dough was made? A tripling of the dough is not fatal but we don't want it to get out of hand. Let's see what happens when you are ready to use the dough tomorrow. You may not need much of a temper time, and we can always make adjustment to the yeast quantity next time if called for based on your results.

Peter

Peter,

I don’t use the food grade bags until I think whatever I am experimenting with might be okay for a 5 dough ball batch at market, and then I only do a couple in food grade bags to see how that works out.

The dough was 75 degrees F right off the hook in the mixer, then I balled right away and it went right into the fridge.  I just purchased a new fridge for home 2 weeks ago, so I don’t think it is my fridge that is making the dough ferment too fast.  The other picture I posted with the thermometer shows how soft the dough looked, then when I balled the dough it looked like cottage cheese.  Maybe I need to bring my IR gun home from market and see what temperature my new fridge is.  I had thought for a one day cold ferment 0.55% IDY wouldn’t make the dough ferment that much in such a short time.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Maybe you may be on your way to a good 1 day cold fermenting dough with that kind of rise. Maybe a bit less yeast next time? I am no pro but i have not yet used a .55% yeast in my dough, even for a 1 day cold ferment. The highest i used yet is .35%. I am thinking though that for my next 1 day cold ferment using .4%. The last time i used a 1 day ferment i used .35 idy and 85deg dough out of the mixer and that seemed to work ok. I have been making extra dough for the 2-3 day ferment so i haven't needed a 1day ferment latley.

franco9752,

Thank you for the suggestion. Normally, I would use and recommend less yeast but I have seen reports recently by members on the forum who have been having problems with their Lehmann NY style doughs not rising enough with one-day cold ferments. I also thought that perhaps it was a lot cooler where Norma is than where I am, where it has been quite hot (85-90 degrees F the past two days). That is the reason why I asked Norma to monitor the expansion of the dough she made. Actually, I would rather overshoot the mark than undershoot it. I think it is easier to make the adjustment that way. 

Peter

[norma427]

Maybe you may be on your way to a good 1 day cold fermenting dough with that kind of rise. Maybe a bit less yeast next time? I am no pro but i have not yet used a .55% yeast in my dough, even for a 1 day cold ferment. The highest i used yet is .35%. I am thinking though that for my next 1 day cold ferment using .4%. The last time i used a 1 day ferment i used .35 idy and 85deg dough out of the mixer and that seemed to work ok. I have been making extra dough for the 2-3 day ferment so i haven't needed a 1day ferment latley.

franko9752,

I really don’t know why the dough ball would be fermenting that fast.  I have used even a little more IDY for a one day ferment and it seemed work out okay before.  I sure don’t know if it might be the lower protein flour with the decent amount of hydration that might be making the dough ball ferment faster.  The IDY might need to be adjusted.  I try to have my final dough temperatures around 70-75 degrees F. 

Thanks for explaining how you amounts of IDY have worked for you.

Norma

[norma427]

Last evening I kept watching how the old NY style dough ball was fermenting and I thought it was fermenting too fast because bubbles were starting to form on the top of dough ball.  I didn’t think about it before, but got the idea to use my digital candy thermometer to put into my fridge and the temperature in my fridge was too high.  I adjusted the temperature before I went to bed and this morning the dough ball doesn’t look like it is fermenting much more.  I guess when the guys came to bring my new fridge and set it up, they didn’t set the temperature right.  I just thought when they set the dial in my fridge they knew what they were doing.  Now the temperature in the fridge is 39 degrees F.  From what I have now observed, I don’t think it was anything I did wrong, but was the fridges temperature that was making the dough ball ferment too fast.  Hopefully, the dough ball won’t ferment a lot more today before I try to open it and make it into a pizza.

Picture of the dough ball last evening with the measuring device before I checked the temperature of the fridge.

Norma

[franko9752]

I use a pretty good refridgerator thermometer that stands upright in my fridge and usually put about 20 doughballs in from my Sun. mix for Tues. cook and have to turn the fridge colder to keep the temp. under 40deg. and a few hours later i have to turn the fridge warmer again to keep it above freezing as the dough cools. Then i usually try to keep the temp at about 36 or 38 deg. Hoping i am doing this right?

[norma427]

I use a pretty good refridgerator thermometer that stands upright in my fridge and usually put about 20 doughballs in from my Sun. mix for Tues. cook and have to turn the fridge colder to keep the temp. under 40deg. and a few hours later i have to turn the fridge warmer again to keep it above freezing as the dough cools. Then i usually try to keep the temp at about 36 or 38 deg. Hoping i am doing this right?

franko9752,

It sounds like you are using good fridge temperatures to ferment your dough balls  The dough balls at market cold ferment at about the same temperatures as yours does.

Norma

[norma427]

The pre-1970’s dough ball attempt went okay today.  The dough ball did ferment a little bit more while in the pizza prep fridge, but not like it was fermenting too fast yesterday.  The dough ball left out room temperature to warm-up for about an hour and the dough ball was used about 27 hours after mixing.  The dough ball was easy to open and the pizza baked well.  My taste testers and I did like the texture of the of the crumb and how the bottom baked somewhat crispy, but the taste testers and I do like the Lehmann dough better.  I don’t know why, but the crust didn’t taste salty enough.  It tasted rather bland.  One of my later customers that likes the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and the 24 hr Lehmann dough pizzas, said the crust tasted like cardboard, but then he ate a reheated slice after it sat for a few hours.  We didn’t taste any of the slices, except for right after the bake.

This is a video of Steve slicing the pizza with a pizza cutter.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDTo_tvSXhY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDTo_tvSXhY</a>

Norma

[norma427]

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[franko9752]

Looks good Norma. Hard to believe it taste like cardboard.

[franko9752]

What cheese did you use on this? Looks like you shredded it.

[norma427]

Looks good Norma. Hard to believe it taste like cardboard.

franko9752,

The pre-1970’s pizza attempt didn’t taste like cardboard to Steve, my taste testers or me.  The only person that said the pizza tasted like cardboard was my one customer that had a reheated slice after the slice sat out for about 2 hrs. 

What cheese did you use on this? Looks like you shredded it.

I use a 50-50 blend of Foremost Farms 1950 brand part skim mozzarella and Bella Fran whole milk mozzarella.  I do shred all my cheeses in the Pelican Head that fits on my Hobart mixer.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Do you normally sell reheated slices of your preferment Lehmann pizzas and the regular Lehmann pizzas after two hours and, if so, would you or your taste testers, or even customers, characterize the crust as being cardboard-like?

Also, can you list the positives and negatives of the latest crust from your perspective and those of the taste testers? A one-day dough is a challenge, especially compared against what you have been doing for the last couple of years or so, but I'd like to see if there are ways of improving upon your maiden effort with the Occident flour. It might well be that other flours are better or possibly there are other changes that might be made to achieve a better product.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Do you normally sell reheated slices of your preferment Lehmann pizzas and the regular Lehmann pizzas after two hours and, if so, would you or your taste testers, or even customers, characterize the crust as being cardboard-like?

Also, can you list the positives and negatives of the latest crust from your perspective and those of the taste testers? A one-day dough is a challenge, especially compared against what you have been doing for the last couple of years or so, but I'd like to see if there are ways of improving upon your maiden effort with the Occident flour. It might well be that other flours are better or possibly there are other changes that might be made to achieve a better product.

Peter

Peter,

No, I don’t ever sell reheated slices of the preferment Lehmann pizzas, or the regular Lehmann pizzas after two hours.  I do reheat some other experimental doughs up for some of my regular customers, if they want to taste a slice, and Steve and I take home some experimental slices to do reheats.  Some of those slices reheat very well.  My one taste tester almost always takes home a couple of slices of experiments, or slices of preferment Lehmann dough pizzas if they are in the heated case too long, and he always reheats in a cast iron frying pan on the stove.  He always likes any slices reheated in his frying pan.

I think the positives of the crust were that the bottom crust was a little more crispy and looked good on the bottom crust, and I also liked how thin they were.  It might always be a challenge now, since my customers seem to like more rim puffy crusts to get them to like a rim that isn’t as puffy.  The preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and the 1 day Lehmann dough pizzas are softer in the rim crust.  I don’t know if I would add more oil if the pre-1970’s rim crust would also become softer. 

I would appreciate any ideas of how to improve on the maiden voyage. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

You might want to increase the amount of oil to 3% and increase the thickness factor to around 0.09, which I believe is a little closer to what you have been using for your preferment Lehmann dough. That might be a compromise value. I also notice that you used Morton's Kosher salt for the last dough. You might want to switch to regular salt since that is what an old NYC pizza maker would have used. It that turns out to be too bland, you can always increase it in a future test dough.

You might be able to get a bit more lift and increased oven spring if you increase the hydration, maybe to 64%. But, unless you feel otherwise, I think I would rather reserve that option for a future test if warranted.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

You might want to increase the amount of oil to 3% and increase the thickness factor to around 0.09, which I believe is a little closer to what you have been using for your preferment Lehmann dough. That might be a compromise value. I also notice that you used Morton's Kosher salt for the last dough. You might want to switch to regular salt since that is what an old NYC pizza maker would have used. It that turns out to be too bland, you can always increase it in a future test dough.

You might be able to get a bit more lift and increased oven spring if you increase the hydration, maybe to 64%. But, unless you feel otherwise, I think I would rather reserve that option for a future test if warranted.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts on how much to increase the oil and the TF.  I will switch to regular salt since you told me that is what an old NYC pizza maker would have used.  Do you mean I should keep the salt at the same percentage as my attempt, but just change the salt? 

I think I will wait to see what the results are by increasing the oil, TF, and using a different salt first, before I change the hydration.  I don’t like to change too many variables at a time.

Norma