the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I would stay with 1.85% for the salt.

I agree with you on not changing too many variables at one time. I was trying to leapfrog some of the other possible changes in order to minimize the number of experiments you conduct with the dough. I am thinking first about the textural and structural parts of the dough. If we can get those right, then maybe we can work on the flavor aspects.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I would stay with 1.85% for the salt.

I agree with you on not changing too many variables at one time. I was trying to leapfrog some of the other possible changes in order to minimize the number of experiments you conduct with the dough. I am thinking first about the textural and structural parts of the dough. If we can get those right, then maybe we can work on the flavor aspects.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for thinking about the changes in textural and structural parts of the dough.  I agree that is what needs to be worked on first too.

Norma

[norma427]

These pictures are just 2 pictures of cutting into bubbles to see if any “spider webs” were in the bubbles and a picture of the last pie of the day on Tuesday.  Since the last pie of the day was for my granddaughter and daughter they didn’t mine me fingering it.  The other slice with some “spider web” near the edge was taken earlier in the day.  I can’t cut into each pie to see if there are “spider webs” or not in the bubbles.  These pictures of rims and pizza were all from a 24 hr. cold fermented Lehmann dough.

Norma

[franko9752]

That looks pretty good Norma. Do you think you will be using the 24hr cold ferment weekly? Do you like the taste? When i have to use a 24hr ferment i think it tastes ok.

[norma427]

That looks pretty good Norma. Do you think you will be using the 24hr cold ferment weekly? Do you like the taste? When i have to use a 24hr ferment i think it tastes ok.

franko9752,

I really don’t know at this point in time if I will keep using the Lehmann 24 hr. cold ferment or if I will change back to the preferment Lehmann dough, or continue on the path to see if I can make a decent pre-1970’s dough.  I wish I could have tasted a pre-1970’s real NY pizza so I would know how to compare them with my experiments.  I sure don’t know, but as far back as I can remember the pie makers have always been able to throw the dough.  I know so far I wouldn’t have been able to throw the dough I just tried.  In my opinion Mack’s dough is good.  I might even try a Mack’s dough for market someday.  It too, is something like a NY style pizza.  Back in my earlier years, I always enjoyed watching how pizza makers could throw their dough and toss and spin it.  I would think, but sure don’t know, that is the way pre-1970’s doughs would have been made.

Norma

[franko9752]

I have found that with high hydration i cannot throw the dough. With my current 58% hydration and AllTrumps flour it throws real good unless i keep the dough out in room temps too long, if that happens i usually put it back in the fridge for a while and it will throw good after cooling a bit. Iwill get some pics on here soon of my dough to see what you think. I never have too much luck with 60% or more hydration, 58% and lower is my best doughs. What effect is hydration higher then 60%? I know the Nepolitian makers love 65% or more, is that because of the very high heat?

[Pete-zza]

I sure don’t know, but as far back as I can remember the pie makers have always been able to throw the dough.  I know so far I wouldn’t have been able to throw the dough I just tried.

Norma,

In the old days, NYC pizza makers made dough that was mostly same-day dough. I believe that is largely true to this day. Same-day dough meant that you had to achieve the proper balance between the flour used (mostly all-purpose flour but later followed by bread flour), the hydration value used, and the amounts of yeast (usually fresh) and salt so that the dough balls would be ready to use to make pizzas for the first customers after the doors were opened but would still make it through to dinner and possibly beyond. Of course, that usually meant that the best tasting pizzas were the ones toward the end of the day. No doubt adjustments were also made to yeast quantity and/or water temperature to compensate for normal seasonal variations in temperature.

I do not recall offhand whether the old style NY dough balls based on high hydration values (e.g., 65%) were amenable to tossing, especially when you got to large pizza sizes (e.g., 18"). Maybe the early skins could be but I would imagine that tossing the skins made toward the end of the day would have been more problematic. I also recall reading posts by Terry Deane, who made 18" NY style doughs with hydration values of around 65%, even with weaker Canadian flours, and he said that it was hard to toss skins at that hydration value, and he doubted that other pizza operators did that also. He said he relied a lot on gravity. If tossing dough skins is a requirement, that is easily solved. You just use a much lower hydration value.

In your case, you will note that I did not suggest changing the yeast quantity (0.55% IDY) or hydration value (63%). As to the yeast quantity, I wanted to see if your refrigerator temperature adjustment would allow you to use 0.55% IDY and 63% hydration without the dough overfermenting after about one day of cold fermentation and making it difficult to work with the dough. I also feel that that combination of yeast quantity and hydration value might lend itself to better oven spring. In your case, if you decide to increase the amount of oil to say, 3%, that amount of oil will also have a "wetting" effect and make your dough seem even more hydrated. If that becomes a problem, but you still like the contributions of the oil to texture, tenderness and flavor, we can always scale back the hydration value. There is almost always a "two steps forward, one step back" aspect to experiments like these.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

What effect is hydration higher then 60%?

franco9752,

There are several possible effects. First, the dough will ferment faster, because of increased mobility of the ingredients in the dough. A faster fermentation means that you will get more byproducts of fermentation that contribute to the texture, color, aroma and flavor of the finished crust. These are ordinarily desirable for a dough that is to get only one day of cold fermentation. Second, if the oven temperature allows, and with proper shaping of the skin and forming the rim so that it contains a lot of gas, one should get increased oven spring. This is aided in my opinion by using a decent amount of yeast. A larger quantity of yeast will also result in greater fermentation and may even add its own flavor component to the finished crust. This is perhaps most true for fresh yeast but also for ADY because ADY has a fairly high percent of dead yeast cells. Those dead yeast cells add flavor.

Salt at low levels will also speed up the fermentation of a dough because of its fermentation regulating properties. However, it can't be too little because you can end up with a crust that is too bland. My recollection from what Evelyne Slomon said is that the old NYC pizza makers used something like 1% salt. When I tried that amount, I thought that the crust was too bland.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

In the old days, NYC pizza makers made dough that was mostly same-day dough. I believe that is largely true to this day. Same-day dough meant that you had to achieve the proper balance between the flour used (mostly all-purpose flour but later followed by bread flour), the hydration value used, and the amounts of yeast (usually fresh) and salt so that the dough balls would be ready to use to make pizzas for the first customers after the doors were opened but would still make it through to dinner and possibly beyond. Of course, that usually meant that the best tasting pizzas were the ones toward the end of the day. No doubt adjustments were also made to yeast quantity and/or water temperature to compensate for normal seasonal variations in temperature.

I do not recall offhand whether the old style NY dough balls based on high hydration values (e.g., 65%) were amenable to tossing, especially when you got to large pizza sizes (e.g., 18"). Maybe the early skins could be but I would imagine that tossing the skins made toward the end of the day would have been more problematic. I also recall reading posts by Terry Deane, who made 18" NY style doughs with hydration values of around 65%, even with weaker Canadian flours, and he said that it was hard to toss skins at that hydration value, and he doubted that other pizza operators did that also. He said he relied a lot on gravity. If tossing dough skins is a requirement, that is easily solved. You just use a much lower hydration value.

In your case, you will note that I did not suggest changing the yeast quantity (0.55% IDY) or hydration value (63%). As to the yeast quantity, I wanted to see if your refrigerator temperature adjustment would allow you to use 0.55% IDY and 63% hydration without the dough overfermenting after about one day of cold fermentation and making it difficult to work with the dough. I also feel that that combination of yeast quantity and hydration value might lend itself to better oven spring. In your case, if you decide to increase the amount of oil to say, 3%, that amount of oil will also have a "wetting" effect and make your dough seem even more hydrated. If that becomes a problem, but you still like the contributions of the oil to texture, tenderness and flavor, we can always scale back the hydration value. There is almost always a "two steps forward, one step back" aspect to experiments like these.

Peter

Peter,

I am trying to understand why many people say in old days NYC pizzas were better than they were today.  Why would they have been better if they were only going to be a mostly same-day dough?  I can understand that the better pizzas would have been made later in the day with that method, but don’t comprehend how many people say almost nothing might compare with those pizzas.  What do you think made them so special?  Was it the fresh yeast, a balance of all the ingredients, room temperature ferment, or something else? 

It makes me wonder how Terry Deane’s pizzas tasted in his crusts if he used a high hydration and weaker Canadian flours.  Did he only do a one day cold ferment or were his doughs fermented longer? 

I don’t have a requirement that the dough can be tossed. 

I noted that you didn’t suggest changing the yeast quantity and understand why.  I also understand adding more oil can also make the dough seem more hydrated.  Do you think adding ADY instead of IDY would give any better taste in the crust?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I think you will find a diversity of opinion on whether the old style NY pizzas were better than they are now. But I think that I can make out a case that since a long room temperature fermentation is equivalent to a considerably longer cold fermentation, the finished crusts can have more flavor because of the increased amounts of byproducts of fermentation. Also, when using a bromated flour, the mix/knead times can usually be shortened. This, along with the salt, which is an antioxidant, serves to reduce oxidation of the dough and thus preserves carotenoids and other elements in the flour that contribute to the color, aroma and taste of the finished crust. These aspects were at the heart of the methods Professor Calvel espoused to make bread in his book The Taste of Bread.

Another point to keep in mind is that a lot of the early pizza operators did not have the physical space for coolers and other refrigeration equipment when such equipment became commercially feasible. So, everthing they did in terms of selection of ingredients and quantities and production methods was dictated by their circumstances. Everything had to work within a defined period of time measured in hours, not days.

On the flip side of the coin, cold fermentation offers conveniences that were not available in the early days, and lends itself better to inventory management and control. But cold fermentation has its own challenges, such as the one you are now confronted with in your effort to make a very good one-day cold fermented dough. I have been trying to cram as many things as I can think of into a one-day cold fermented dough that might help you make a credible and marketable pizza. The use of ADY was one such idea, as small as it is. At some point you might consider using ADY instead of IDY but I would defer that decision until we see if it is something worth trying. The very early pizza operators did not have ADY to try since it didn't exist. It was invented after World War II. IDY came onto the scene in the 1970s.

I will do some searching of the forum for the specifics of the doughs that Terry Deane used, however I recall that he tried a lot of things and that he spent a fair amount of time using sourdough starters, and he was also an advocate of using preferments. I also recall that he did not see a lot of advantages of using a prolonged cold fermentation where such starters were available. However, I did find some interesting posts on recreating a NY style pizza starting with the post at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68168/topicseen.html#msg68168. Actually, in retrospect, that was an interesting thread.

Peter

[jeffereynelson]

Norma - I tend to think it's the whole absence makes the heart grow fonder thing. As time passes we forget the bad, and exaggerate the good.

[Pete-zza]

Jeff,

You are correct. Nostalgia is always a powerful force in the way we view things. People also often tend to forget the technological advancements over decades that have resulted in significant advances in so many areas that relate to pizza, especially with new wheat cultivars that make our flours among the best in the world. Yet, on the other hand, from what scott123 and pizzablogger have recently reported, it appears that there has been a serious decline in the quality of NY style pizza sold these days in the metro NYC area. That has led to the phenomenon of $1 pizza slices and threats of going to $0.75. I'd love to see what goes into such pizzas.

Peter

[jeffereynelson]

Jeff,

You are correct. Nostalgia is always a powerful force in the way we view things. People also often tend to forget the technological advancements over decades that have resulted in significant advances in so many areas that relate to pizza, especially with new wheat cultivars that make our flours among the best in the world. Yet, on the other hand, from what scott123 and pizzablogger have recently reported, it appears that there has been a serious decline in the quality of NY style pizza sold these days in the metro NYC area. That has led to the phenomenon of $1 pizza slices and threats of going to $0.75. I'd love to see what goes into such pizzas.

Peter

Ya a $1 slice in NY is pretty crazy where everything costs so much money, and I didn't know there was a possibility of having them be .75. But I wonder what is better, 2 okay slices for $1 each, or a good slice for $2.50? I guess it just comes to the contribution margin and the projected sales at the end of the day.

[norma427]

Norma,

I think you will find a diversity of opinion on whether the old style NY pizzas were better than they are now. But I think that I can make out a case that since a long room temperature fermentation is equivalent to a considerably longer cold fermentation, the finished crusts can have more flavor because of the increased amounts of byproducts of fermentation. Also, when using a bromated flour, the mix/knead times can usually be shortened. This, along with the salt, which is an antioxidant, serves to reduce oxidation of the dough and thus preserves carotenoids and other elements in the flour that contribute to the color, aroma and taste of the finished crust. These aspects were at the heart of the methods Professor Calvel espoused to make bread in his book The Taste of Bread.

Another point to keep in mind is that a lot of the early pizza operators did not have the physical space for coolers and other refrigeration equipment when such equipment became commercially feasible. So, everthing they did in terms of selection of ingredients and quantities and production methods was dictated by their circumstances. Everything had to work within a defined period of time measured in hours, not days.

On the flip side of the coin, cold fermentation offers conveniences that were not available in the early days, and lends itself better to inventory management and control. But cold fermentation has its own challenges, such as the one you are now confronted with in your effort to make a very good one-day cold fermented dough. I have been trying to cram as many things as I can think of into a one-day cold fermented dough that might help you make a credible and marketable pizza. The use of ADY was one such idea, as small as it is. At some point you might consider using ADY instead of IDY but I would defer that decision until we see if it is something worth trying. The very early pizza operators did not have ADY to try since it didn't exist. It was invented after World War II. IDY came onto the scene in the 1970s.

I will do some searching of the forum for the specifics of the doughs that Terry Deane used, however I recall that he tried a lot of things and that he spent a fair amount of time using sourdough starters, and he was also an advocate of using preferments. I also recall that he did not see a lot of advantages of using a prolonged cold fermentation where such starters were available. However, I did find some interesting posts on recreating a NY style pizza starting with the post at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68168/topicseen.html#msg68168. Actually, in retrospect, that was an interesting thread.

Peter

Peter,

I understand that a long room temperature fermentation is equivalent to a considerably longer cold fermentation and then the finished pizza could would have more flavor because of the increased amount of byproducts of fermentation.

I find the thread you linked very interesting and will have to read over it more.  In the formulation you used at Reply 21 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68379.html#msg68379 you used 2.5% salt and 3% oil for your NY style.  Wasn’t the salt at that high amount too much for your palate?  Your NY slice looked very good.

Thanks for pointing out that early pizza operators probably didn’t have the space for cooler or other refrigeration equipment.  I see how everything had to work in terms of hours. 

I know you are trying to cram everything you can think of to help me made a credible market NY style pizza and I appreciate that. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma - I tend to think it's the whole absence makes the heart grow fonder thing. As time passes we forget the bad, and exaggerate the good.

Jeff,

I agree that absence make the heart grow fonder.  At least in my opinion, I know I will forever remember Mack’s pizza and still am very fond of it.  Whether it is really that good, or if that was the first pizza that I really liked, is still up for debate.  I guess we all remember the first great pizza we have eaten, or thought it was great.  On our recent trips to NY I thought I might really like one of the NY style pizzas I had eaten, but looking back I can’t really say they were that much better.  Maybe, I am just getting too picky in what I like. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

In the formulation you used at Reply 21 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68379.html#msg68379 you used 2.5% salt and 3% oil for your NY style.  Wasn’t the salt at that high amount too much for your palate?

Norma,

If you look at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68159.html#msg68159, you will see in the penultimate paragraph that I mentioned 1.75% for the salt. If you then look at the following Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68165.html#msg68165, you will see that Terry Deane suggested that the salt value be increased to 2.5%. Since I considered Terry to be an expert on the NY style, as well as a professional specializing in that style, I deferred to his suggestion that the salt be increased to 2.5%. That value was reflected in the dough formulation I created for Mike (Essen1) in Reply 21 that you referenced. For myself, I would perhaps have gone back to 1.75% since I have been conscious for years about sodium levels in pizzas.

I found it interesting that what I proposed to you is pretty much in line with what I set forth in Replies 14 and 21 but for the salt level that I explained above with respect to Reply 21. I think that is because I tend to think in principles and then attach numbers to them once I know what the objectives are. It looks like the principles I applied over three years ago are the same as I applied to your case.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

If you look at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68159.html#msg68159, you will see in the penultimate paragraph that I mentioned 1.75% for the salt. If you then look at the following Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68165.html#msg68165, you will see that Terry Deane suggested that the salt value be increased to 2.5%. Since I considered Terry to be an expert on the NY style, as well as a professional specializing in that style, I deferred to his suggestion that the salt be increased to 2.5%. That value was reflected in the dough formulation I created for Mike (Essen1) in Reply 21 that you referenced. For myself, I would perhaps have gone back to 1.75% since I have been conscious for years about sodium levels in pizzas.

I found it interesting that what I proposed to you is pretty much in line with what I set forth in Replies 14 and 21 but for the salt level that I explained above with respect to Reply 21. I think that is because I tend to think in principles and then attach numbers to them once I know what the objectives are. It looks like the principles I applied over three years ago are the same as I applied to your case.

Peter

Peter,

I missed that you preferred the salt at 1.75%.  I find it interesting how different members prefer more or less salt in formulations and have found I like different amounts of salt according to the kind of pizza I am attempting.  I wonder why that is.  I think I can taste different salt levels, but with different formulations, sometimes I like more salt than other formulations for the final salt taste in the pizza crust.  Just like my last experiment I did, I sure thought that 1.85% would give some salt taste in the final crust, but Steve, my taste testers and I thought their wasn’t much there.

You have a great mind in remembering what you posted before and see you did apply the same principles for me.

Norma

[norma427]

The next attempt at the pre-1970 dough for a pizza was mixed this morning.  I used 3% olive oil in the formulation, changed the Kosher salt to regular salt and kept everything else the same.  The final dough temperature was 72.5 degrees F.  I used the “poppy seed” trick again and after 8 hrs. of cold fermenting the dough ball looks like it is fermenting less than last week.  I don’t think there is any need to post the print out of the formulation.  I changed the memory stick in my camera because I was having trouble with uploading pictures.  The other memory stick seems to be working fine.

Norma

[franko9752]

Must have been the new refridgerator last week that might have been too warm that caused the fast fermenting.

[norma427]

Must have been the new refridgerator last week that might have been too warm that caused the fast fermenting.

franko9752,

I am also thinking so far it was the new fridge wasn’t turned down enough.  I don’t think the little lower final dough temperature this week had that much to do with the slower cold ferment.  Will wait until tomorrow to see what happens.

Norma