Author Topic: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market  (Read 65339 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2012, 09:34:04 PM »
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2012, 09:35:00 PM »
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2012, 09:35:46 PM »
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Offline franko9752

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2012, 10:05:00 PM »
Looks good Norma. Hard to believe it taste like cardboard.

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2012, 10:07:28 PM »
What cheese did you use on this? Looks like you shredded it.

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2012, 10:28:55 PM »
Looks good Norma. Hard to believe it taste like cardboard.

franko9752,

The pre-1970ís pizza attempt didnít taste like cardboard to Steve, my taste testers or me.  The only person that said the pizza tasted like cardboard was my one customer that had a reheated slice after the slice sat out for about 2 hrs. 

What cheese did you use on this? Looks like you shredded it.


I use a 50-50 blend of Foremost Farms 1950 brand part skim mozzarella and Bella Fran whole milk mozzarella.  I do shred all my cheeses in the Pelican Head that fits on my Hobart mixer.

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2012, 10:50:18 AM »
Norma,

Do you normally sell reheated slices of your preferment Lehmann pizzas and the regular Lehmann pizzas after two hours and, if so, would you or your taste testers, or even customers, characterize the crust as being cardboard-like?

Also, can you list the positives and negatives of the latest crust from your perspective and those of the taste testers? A one-day dough is a challenge, especially compared against what you have been doing for the last couple of years or so, but I'd like to see if there are ways of improving upon your maiden effort with the Occident flour. It might well be that other flours are better or possibly there are other changes that might be made to achieve a better product.

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2012, 01:04:07 PM »
Norma,

Do you normally sell reheated slices of your preferment Lehmann pizzas and the regular Lehmann pizzas after two hours and, if so, would you or your taste testers, or even customers, characterize the crust as being cardboard-like?

Also, can you list the positives and negatives of the latest crust from your perspective and those of the taste testers? A one-day dough is a challenge, especially compared against what you have been doing for the last couple of years or so, but I'd like to see if there are ways of improving upon your maiden effort with the Occident flour. It might well be that other flours are better or possibly there are other changes that might be made to achieve a better product.

Peter

Peter,

No, I donít ever sell reheated slices of the preferment Lehmann pizzas, or the regular Lehmann pizzas after two hours.  I do reheat some other experimental doughs up for some of my regular customers, if they want to taste a slice, and Steve and I take home some experimental slices to do reheats.  Some of those slices reheat very well.  My one taste tester almost always takes home a couple of slices of experiments, or slices of preferment Lehmann dough pizzas if they are in the heated case too long, and he always reheats in a cast iron frying pan on the stove.  He always likes any slices reheated in his frying pan.

I think the positives of the crust were that the bottom crust was a little more crispy and looked good on the bottom crust, and I also liked how thin they were.  It might always be a challenge now, since my customers seem to like more rim puffy crusts to get them to like a rim that isnít as puffy.  The preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and the 1 day Lehmann dough pizzas are softer in the rim crust.  I donít know if I would add more oil if the pre-1970ís rim crust would also become softer. 

I would appreciate any ideas of how to improve on the maiden voyage. 

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2012, 02:36:27 PM »
Norma,

You might want to increase the amount of oil to 3% and increase the thickness factor to around 0.09, which I believe is a little closer to what you have been using for your preferment Lehmann dough. That might be a compromise value. I also notice that you used Morton's Kosher salt for the last dough. You might want to switch to regular salt since that is what an old NYC pizza maker would have used. It that turns out to be too bland, you can always increase it in a future test dough.

You might be able to get a bit more lift and increased oven spring if you increase the hydration, maybe to 64%. But, unless you feel otherwise, I think I would rather reserve that option for a future test if warranted.

Peter


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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2012, 03:04:54 PM »
Norma,

You might want to increase the amount of oil to 3% and increase the thickness factor to around 0.09, which I believe is a little closer to what you have been using for your preferment Lehmann dough. That might be a compromise value. I also notice that you used Morton's Kosher salt for the last dough. You might want to switch to regular salt since that is what an old NYC pizza maker would have used. It that turns out to be too bland, you can always increase it in a future test dough.

You might be able to get a bit more lift and increased oven spring if you increase the hydration, maybe to 64%. But, unless you feel otherwise, I think I would rather reserve that option for a future test if warranted.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts on how much to increase the oil and the TF.  I will switch to regular salt since you told me that is what an old NYC pizza maker would have used.  Do you mean I should keep the salt at the same percentage as my attempt, but just change the salt? 

I think I will wait to see what the results are by increasing the oil, TF, and using a different salt first, before I change the hydration.  I donít like to change too many variables at a time.

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2012, 03:13:39 PM »
Norma,

I would stay with 1.85% for the salt.

I agree with you on not changing too many variables at one time. I was trying to leapfrog some of the other possible changes in order to minimize the number of experiments you conduct with the dough. I am thinking first about the textural and structural parts of the dough. If we can get those right, then maybe we can work on the flavor aspects.

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2012, 03:25:11 PM »
Norma,

I would stay with 1.85% for the salt.

I agree with you on not changing too many variables at one time. I was trying to leapfrog some of the other possible changes in order to minimize the number of experiments you conduct with the dough. I am thinking first about the textural and structural parts of the dough. If we can get those right, then maybe we can work on the flavor aspects.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for thinking about the changes in textural and structural parts of the dough.  I agree that is what needs to be worked on first too.

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2012, 08:09:52 AM »
These pictures are just 2 pictures of cutting into bubbles to see if any ďspider websĒ were in the bubbles and a picture of the last pie of the day on Tuesday.  Since the last pie of the day was for my granddaughter and daughter they didnít mine me fingering it.  The other slice with some ďspider webĒ near the edge was taken earlier in the day.  I canít cut into each pie to see if there are ďspider websĒ or not in the bubbles.  These pictures of rims and pizza were all from a 24 hr. cold fermented Lehmann dough.

Norma
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Offline franko9752

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2012, 09:34:56 AM »
That looks pretty good Norma. Do you think you will be using the 24hr cold ferment weekly? Do you like the taste? When i have to use a 24hr ferment i think it tastes ok.

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2012, 11:02:42 AM »
That looks pretty good Norma. Do you think you will be using the 24hr cold ferment weekly? Do you like the taste? When i have to use a 24hr ferment i think it tastes ok.

franko9752,

I really donít know at this point in time if I will keep using the Lehmann 24 hr. cold ferment or if I will change back to the preferment Lehmann dough, or continue on the path to see if I can make a decent pre-1970ís dough.  I wish I could have tasted a pre-1970ís real NY pizza so I would know how to compare them with my experiments.  I sure donít know, but as far back as I can remember the pie makers have always been able to throw the dough.  I know so far I wouldnít have been able to throw the dough I just tried.  In my opinion Mackís dough is good.  I might even try a Mackís dough for market someday.  It too, is something like a NY style pizza.  Back in my earlier years, I always enjoyed watching how pizza makers could throw their dough and toss and spin it.  I would think, but sure donít know, that is the way pre-1970ís doughs would have been made.

Norma
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Offline franko9752

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2012, 01:48:18 PM »
I have found that with high hydration i cannot throw the dough. With my current 58% hydration and AllTrumps flour it throws real good unless i keep the dough out in room temps too long, if that happens i usually put it back in the fridge for a while and it will throw good after cooling a bit. Iwill get some pics on here soon of my dough to see what you think. I never have too much luck with 60% or more hydration, 58% and lower is my best doughs. What effect is hydration higher then 60%? I know the Nepolitian makers love 65% or more, is that because of the very high heat?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 10:20:01 PM by franko9752 »

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2012, 02:03:21 PM »
I sure donít know, but as far back as I can remember the pie makers have always been able to throw the dough.  I know so far I wouldnít have been able to throw the dough I just tried.

Norma,

In the old days, NYC pizza makers made dough that was mostly same-day dough. I believe that is largely true to this day. Same-day dough meant that you had to achieve the proper balance between the flour used (mostly all-purpose flour but later followed by bread flour), the hydration value used, and the amounts of yeast (usually fresh) and salt so that the dough balls would be ready to use to make pizzas for the first customers after the doors were opened but would still make it through to dinner and possibly beyond. Of course, that usually meant that the best tasting pizzas were the ones toward the end of the day. No doubt adjustments were also made to yeast quantity and/or water temperature to compensate for normal seasonal variations in temperature.

I do not recall offhand whether the old style NY dough balls based on high hydration values (e.g., 65%) were amenable to tossing, especially when you got to large pizza sizes (e.g., 18"). Maybe the early skins could be but I would imagine that tossing the skins made toward the end of the day would have been more problematic. I also recall reading posts by Terry Deane, who made 18" NY style doughs with hydration values of around 65%, even with weaker Canadian flours, and he said that it was hard to toss skins at that hydration value, and he doubted that other pizza operators did that also. He said he relied a lot on gravity. If tossing dough skins is a requirement, that is easily solved. You just use a much lower hydration value.

In your case, you will note that I did not suggest changing the yeast quantity (0.55% IDY) or hydration value (63%). As to the yeast quantity, I wanted to see if your refrigerator temperature adjustment would allow you to use 0.55% IDY and 63% hydration without the dough overfermenting after about one day of cold fermentation and making it difficult to work with the dough. I also feel that that combination of yeast quantity and hydration value might lend itself to better oven spring. In your case, if you decide to increase the amount of oil to say, 3%, that amount of oil will also have a "wetting" effect and make your dough seem even more hydrated. If that becomes a problem, but you still like the contributions of the oil to texture, tenderness and flavor, we can always scale back the hydration value. There is almost always a "two steps forward, one step back" aspect to experiments like these.

Peter


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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2012, 02:21:05 PM »
What effect is hydration higher then 60%?

franco9752,

There are several possible effects. First, the dough will ferment faster, because of increased mobility of the ingredients in the dough. A faster fermentation means that you will get more byproducts of fermentation that contribute to the texture, color, aroma and flavor of the finished crust. These are ordinarily desirable for a dough that is to get only one day of cold fermentation. Second, if the oven temperature allows, and with proper shaping of the skin and forming the rim so that it contains a lot of gas, one should get increased oven spring. This is aided in my opinion by using a decent amount of yeast. A larger quantity of yeast will also result in greater fermentation and may even add its own flavor component to the finished crust. This is perhaps most true for fresh yeast but also for ADY because ADY has a fairly high percent of dead yeast cells. Those dead yeast cells add flavor.

Salt at low levels will also speed up the fermentation of a dough because of its fermentation regulating properties. However, it can't be too little because you can end up with a crust that is too bland. My recollection from what Evelyne Slomon said is that the old NYC pizza makers used something like 1% salt. When I tried that amount, I thought that the crust was too bland.

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2012, 04:46:49 PM »
Norma,

In the old days, NYC pizza makers made dough that was mostly same-day dough. I believe that is largely true to this day. Same-day dough meant that you had to achieve the proper balance between the flour used (mostly all-purpose flour but later followed by bread flour), the hydration value used, and the amounts of yeast (usually fresh) and salt so that the dough balls would be ready to use to make pizzas for the first customers after the doors were opened but would still make it through to dinner and possibly beyond. Of course, that usually meant that the best tasting pizzas were the ones toward the end of the day. No doubt adjustments were also made to yeast quantity and/or water temperature to compensate for normal seasonal variations in temperature.

I do not recall offhand whether the old style NY dough balls based on high hydration values (e.g., 65%) were amenable to tossing, especially when you got to large pizza sizes (e.g., 18"). Maybe the early skins could be but I would imagine that tossing the skins made toward the end of the day would have been more problematic. I also recall reading posts by Terry Deane, who made 18" NY style doughs with hydration values of around 65%, even with weaker Canadian flours, and he said that it was hard to toss skins at that hydration value, and he doubted that other pizza operators did that also. He said he relied a lot on gravity. If tossing dough skins is a requirement, that is easily solved. You just use a much lower hydration value.

In your case, you will note that I did not suggest changing the yeast quantity (0.55% IDY) or hydration value (63%). As to the yeast quantity, I wanted to see if your refrigerator temperature adjustment would allow you to use 0.55% IDY and 63% hydration without the dough overfermenting after about one day of cold fermentation and making it difficult to work with the dough. I also feel that that combination of yeast quantity and hydration value might lend itself to better oven spring. In your case, if you decide to increase the amount of oil to say, 3%, that amount of oil will also have a "wetting" effect and make your dough seem even more hydrated. If that becomes a problem, but you still like the contributions of the oil to texture, tenderness and flavor, we can always scale back the hydration value. There is almost always a "two steps forward, one step back" aspect to experiments like these.

Peter

Peter,

I am trying to understand why many people say in old days NYC pizzas were better than they were today.  Why would they have been better if they were only going to be a mostly same-day dough?  I can understand that the better pizzas would have been made later in the day with that method, but donít comprehend how many people say almost nothing might compare with those pizzas.  What do you think made them so special?  Was it the fresh yeast, a balance of all the ingredients, room temperature ferment, or something else? 

It makes me wonder how Terry Deaneís pizzas tasted in his crusts if he used a high hydration and weaker Canadian flours.  Did he only do a one day cold ferment or were his doughs fermented longer? 

I donít have a requirement that the dough can be tossed. 

I noted that you didnít suggest changing the yeast quantity and understand why.  I also understand adding more oil can also make the dough seem more hydrated.  Do you think adding ADY instead of IDY would give any better taste in the crust?

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2012, 06:12:40 PM »
Norma,

I think you will find a diversity of opinion on whether the old style NY pizzas were better than they are now. But I think that I can make out a case that since a long room temperature fermentation is equivalent to a considerably longer cold fermentation, the finished crusts can have more flavor because of the increased amounts of byproducts of fermentation. Also, when using a bromated flour, the mix/knead times can usually be shortened. This, along with the salt, which is an antioxidant, serves to reduce oxidation of the dough and thus preserves carotenoids and other elements in the flour that contribute to the color, aroma and taste of the finished crust. These aspects were at the heart of the methods Professor Calvel espoused to make bread in his book The Taste of Bread.

Another point to keep in mind is that a lot of the early pizza operators did not have the physical space for coolers and other refrigeration equipment when such equipment became commercially feasible. So, everthing they did in terms of selection of ingredients and quantities and production methods was dictated by their circumstances. Everything had to work within a defined period of time measured in hours, not days.

On the flip side of the coin, cold fermentation offers conveniences that were not available in the early days, and lends itself better to inventory management and control. But cold fermentation has its own challenges, such as the one you are now confronted with in your effort to make a very good one-day cold fermented dough. I have been trying to cram as many things as I can think of into a one-day cold fermented dough that might help you make a credible and marketable pizza. The use of ADY was one such idea, as small as it is. At some point you might consider using ADY instead of IDY but I would defer that decision until we see if it is something worth trying. The very early pizza operators did not have ADY to try since it didn't exist. It was invented after World War II. IDY came onto the scene in the 1970s.

I will do some searching of the forum for the specifics of the doughs that Terry Deane used, however I recall that he tried a lot of things and that he spent a fair amount of time using sourdough starters, and he was also an advocate of using preferments. I also recall that he did not see a lot of advantages of using a prolonged cold fermentation where such starters were available. However, I did find some interesting posts on recreating a NY style pizza starting with the post at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68168/topicseen.html#msg68168. Actually, in retrospect, that was an interesting thread.

Peter




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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2012, 06:20:19 PM »
Norma - I tend to think it's the whole absence makes the heart grow fonder thing. As time passes we forget the bad, and exaggerate the good.

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2012, 06:34:18 PM »
Jeff,

You are correct. Nostalgia is always a powerful force in the way we view things. People also often tend to forget the technological advancements over decades that have resulted in significant advances in so many areas that relate to pizza, especially with new wheat cultivars that make our flours among the best in the world. Yet, on the other hand, from what scott123 and pizzablogger have recently reported, it appears that there has been a serious decline in the quality of NY style pizza sold these days in the metro NYC area. That has led to the phenomenon of $1 pizza slices and threats of going to $0.75. I'd love to see what goes into such pizzas.

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2012, 07:06:25 PM »
Jeff,

You are correct. Nostalgia is always a powerful force in the way we view things. People also often tend to forget the technological advancements over decades that have resulted in significant advances in so many areas that relate to pizza, especially with new wheat cultivars that make our flours among the best in the world. Yet, on the other hand, from what scott123 and pizzablogger have recently reported, it appears that there has been a serious decline in the quality of NY style pizza sold these days in the metro NYC area. That has led to the phenomenon of $1 pizza slices and threats of going to $0.75. I'd love to see what goes into such pizzas.

Peter

Ya a $1 slice in NY is pretty crazy where everything costs so much money, and I didn't know there was a possibility of having them be .75. But I wonder what is better, 2 okay slices for $1 each, or a good slice for $2.50? I guess it just comes to the contribution margin and the projected sales at the end of the day.

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2012, 09:53:31 PM »
Norma,

I think you will find a diversity of opinion on whether the old style NY pizzas were better than they are now. But I think that I can make out a case that since a long room temperature fermentation is equivalent to a considerably longer cold fermentation, the finished crusts can have more flavor because of the increased amounts of byproducts of fermentation. Also, when using a bromated flour, the mix/knead times can usually be shortened. This, along with the salt, which is an antioxidant, serves to reduce oxidation of the dough and thus preserves carotenoids and other elements in the flour that contribute to the color, aroma and taste of the finished crust. These aspects were at the heart of the methods Professor Calvel espoused to make bread in his book The Taste of Bread.

Another point to keep in mind is that a lot of the early pizza operators did not have the physical space for coolers and other refrigeration equipment when such equipment became commercially feasible. So, everthing they did in terms of selection of ingredients and quantities and production methods was dictated by their circumstances. Everything had to work within a defined period of time measured in hours, not days.

On the flip side of the coin, cold fermentation offers conveniences that were not available in the early days, and lends itself better to inventory management and control. But cold fermentation has its own challenges, such as the one you are now confronted with in your effort to make a very good one-day cold fermented dough. I have been trying to cram as many things as I can think of into a one-day cold fermented dough that might help you make a credible and marketable pizza. The use of ADY was one such idea, as small as it is. At some point you might consider using ADY instead of IDY but I would defer that decision until we see if it is something worth trying. The very early pizza operators did not have ADY to try since it didn't exist. It was invented after World War II. IDY came onto the scene in the 1970s.

I will do some searching of the forum for the specifics of the doughs that Terry Deane used, however I recall that he tried a lot of things and that he spent a fair amount of time using sourdough starters, and he was also an advocate of using preferments. I also recall that he did not see a lot of advantages of using a prolonged cold fermentation where such starters were available. However, I did find some interesting posts on recreating a NY style pizza starting with the post at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68168/topicseen.html#msg68168. Actually, in retrospect, that was an interesting thread.

Peter





Peter,

I understand that a long room temperature fermentation is equivalent to a considerably longer cold fermentation and then the finished pizza could would have more flavor because of the increased amount of byproducts of fermentation.

I find the thread you linked very interesting and will have to read over it more.  In the formulation you used at Reply 21 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7931.msg68379.html#msg68379 you used 2.5% salt and 3% oil for your NY style.  Wasnít the salt at that high amount too much for your palate?  Your NY slice looked very good.

Thanks for pointing out that early pizza operators probably didnít have the space for cooler or other refrigeration equipment.  I see how everything had to work in terms of hours. 

I know you are trying to cram everything you can think of to help me made a credible market NY style pizza and I appreciate that. 

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2012, 10:01:26 PM »
Norma - I tend to think it's the whole absence makes the heart grow fonder thing. As time passes we forget the bad, and exaggerate the good.

Jeff,

I agree that absence make the heart grow fonder.  At least in my opinion, I know I will forever remember Mackís pizza and still am very fond of it.  Whether it is really that good, or if that was the first pizza that I really liked, is still up for debate.  I guess we all remember the first great pizza we have eaten, or thought it was great.  On our recent trips to NY I thought I might really like one of the NY style pizzas I had eaten, but looking back I canít really say they were that much better.  Maybe, I am just getting too picky in what I like. 

Norma
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