Author Topic: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market  (Read 50778 times)

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Offline Polo1523

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #660 on: April 18, 2013, 11:48:39 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for all the info, I don't have any experience in a WFO as of yet, I gradutaded culinary arts last year, and have bit experience with temperatures, but definitely I will learn on the go as soon as I can start using the WFO, Pizza is one of my passions since I was a little kid that is the reason I joined this forum, and for what I seen on your posts I realized that the NY recipes have to be adjusted for Higher temp I am planning to use it at 750 to 800 temp, hopefully it goes higher with the insulation I used, to tell you the truth I like better the NY style crust than the 00 caputo Neapolitan crust, not saying I won't try but definitely I love NY style, I seen the posts from Steve  (Ev) oh god love his WFO airstream, I will keep you posted as soon as I start using my oven and also will start a new thread, and I will be asking you a lot of advise on the dough adjustments for high temps. thank you.
Regards Leo.


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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #661 on: April 18, 2013, 12:34:37 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for all the info, I don't have any experience in a WFO as of yet, I gradutaded culinary arts last year, and have bit experience with temperatures, but definitely I will learn on the go as soon as I can start using the WFO, Pizza is one of my passions since I was a little kid that is the reason I joined this forum, and for what I seen on your posts I realized that the NY recipes have to be adjusted for Higher temp I am planning to use it at 750 to 800 temp, hopefully it goes higher with the insulation I used, to tell you the truth I like better the NY style crust than the 00 caputo Neapolitan crust, not saying I won't try but definitely I love NY style, I seen the posts from Steve  (Ev) oh god love his WFO airstream, I will keep you posted as soon as I start using my oven and also will start a new thread, and I will be asking you a lot of advise on the dough adjustments for high temps. thank you.

Leo,

Congrats on graduating from culinary arts last year!  I wish I owned a WFO, but am lucky to being to try some of my doughs is Steve’s WFO’s and watch how he bakes in his WFO’s.  I do really love Neapolitan pizzas, but I also love NY style pizzas.  I think you would be in a good temperature range if you tried to bake at between 750-800 degrees F for a NY style pizza in your WFO.  Hopefully with the insulation you added you will also be able to try out Neapolitan pizzas too.  I am sure Steve would help you too with some formulations if you posted under his threads.  I wanted to mention something else and that is when baking almost any pie at a higher temperature with a shorter bake time, it then turns into something like a Neapolitan pizza in my opinion, in that the bottom crust browns about the same, the rim is soft, and the rim crust doesn’t have as much crispness as baking in a home oven or a deck oven. 

You sure came to the right place is your passion is pizza.  ;D Pizza can lead you down that dark road of trying experiment after experiment and the journey is never done.  :-D Looking forward to see your learning experiences.

Norma 
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Offline Polo1523

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #662 on: April 18, 2013, 01:51:59 PM »
You are right Norma,

The quick 90 second bake will not take all the hydration out from the dough against a 5-6 minute less agressive home oven, I also did a couple of NY pizzas in my home oven so I am familiar with that and accomplished a crispy cornizione, the challenge is yet to come, thank you for your advise and your kind words, I will keep you posted, and hopefully in the near future open a Pizzeria here in Tj Mexico I am lucky that this is a growing culinary location, I am right across the border to SD and most of my ingredients get them from an Italian market in Little Italy at Filipis Pizzeria anyway thank you very much.
Regards Leo.

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #663 on: April 18, 2013, 07:25:33 PM »
Leo,

Best of luck and success if you open a pizzeria in TJ Mexico!  :chef: :pizza: I am not sure where TJ Mexico is, but it sounds good you already have sources for ingredients for a Pizzeria.

Norma
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Offline Polo1523

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #664 on: April 19, 2013, 11:41:09 AM »
Right across the Border to San Diego CA, is the tip of the baja in the Pacific Ocean, we have Rosarito Beach, Puerto Nuevo (one of the best Lobster in the World) Ensenada.  :chef:
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #665 on: April 19, 2013, 12:12:26 PM »
Right across the Border to San Diego CA, is the tip of the baja in the Pacific Ocean, we have Rosarito Beach, Puerto Nuevo (one of the best Lobster in the World) Ensenada.  :chef:

Leo,

Thanks for telling me where it is located.  I love Lobster, but haven't had any in a long while. 

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #666 on: September 16, 2013, 08:07:18 AM »
Hi Norma
Since you make the most pizza around here...I'm interested in how you mix these Lehmann doughs.  What kind of mixer do you use?  Do you mix by length of time or by feel of dough....what metric do you use?  You know I've made soooo many higher hydration doughs the past couple years, and the mixer doesn't really do a great job...and that is why the reball became so much apart of my process.  On the other hand, my cracker doughs are so undermixed, sometimes they don't even make a single ball (depending on the flour). 
I'm sorry if the information is buried in this thread somewhere, I just don't have time to read everything.

Thanks Norma
John

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #667 on: September 16, 2013, 08:13:06 AM »
Norma
I just found a link from Peter (to another member) in one thread you posted heavily in.....to the Lehmann video showing how to mix dough.  Maybe that answers my question to you.  If not, I'd love to hear how you mix dough.
John

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #668 on: September 16, 2013, 08:49:19 AM »
Hi Norma
Since you make the most pizza around here...I'm interested in how you mix these Lehmann doughs.  What kind of mixer do you use?  Do you mix by length of time or by feel of dough....what metric do you use?  You know I've made soooo many higher hydration doughs the past couple years, and the mixer doesn't really do a great job...and that is why the reball became so much apart of my process.  On the other hand, my cracker doughs are so undermixed, sometimes they don't even make a single ball (depending on the flour). 
I'm sorry if the information is buried in this thread somewhere, I just don't have time to read everything.

Thanks Norma
John

John,

You are asking tough questions because I have changed my mixing methods so many times to see what happens.  If you are asking about my doughs at market, right now the videos of my Hobart mixer mixing my dough are at Reply 571 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg278116.html#msg278116  and the second part of the mix after resting the dough for about 10 minutes to hydrate the flour more at Reply 574 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg278135.html#msg278135  That second mix was shorter than I usually do.  Usually first I mix just until the flour is off the bottom of the mixer for about 1-1/2 minutes, then let it rest and then start the mixer and drizzle the oil into the mixing mixer.  I am doing it that way because of what Tom Lehmann posted about the delayed addition of the oil and what Joe Kelley told me from General Mills about the delayed addition of oil.  That dough even with the second shorter mix time did work well the next day.  Usually the second mix is around 5 minutes.  I have been upping the hydration a little at time and am about at 62-63% hydration for that dough right now.  The dough does feel somewhat sticky coming out of the mixer, but it becomes more manageable while cutting, scaling, balling and the oiling.  My 20 qt. Hobart is no match for a bigger Hobart in mixing though and I have read bigger batches mix better.  I wish I could test that out, but I can't.   

To add to what I posted, if I am mixing at home in my Kitchen Aid mixer right now I try to follow the same procedures, but I might start with using a flat beater and then change to the dough hook if I am making enough dough at one time.  I might even use the flat beater for both mixes is the batch is small.  I try to guage how the dough looks also. 

If I am mixing a high hydration dough like the Detroit style pizzas that totally changes how I would mix that kind of dough.

It all depends on how the dough feels after mixing, cutting and scaling, will depend on how many fold unders I will use in balling.

I have changed mixing procedures at home and at market so many times and I am not sure which is right at this point in time.  As you know there is always something new to be learned.

If you need anymore links or for me to explain more, let me know.  I am no means an expert on knowing how to mix doughs even though I have mixed many doughs at home and at market.

I learned a lot from Craig's way of mixing in using stretch and folds for Neapolitan doughs.

Norma 
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #669 on: September 16, 2013, 11:04:26 PM »
I thank you very much Norma!!!  So, in your video (20 quart mixer)....you're not mixing too very long...do you or have you ever done the Lehmann test for mixed dough??  I watched his video again last night, and he was running it 12 minutes!!!  I'm sure you've tried developing your dough for longer periods in the mixer, but you have obviously found something that works for you.  The reason I'm asking these questions, is because as I experiment with stretch and folds versus mixer, I'm hoping I'm not shortchanging the mixer by not developing my dough more.  More work to do...thank you for your time!!

John


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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #670 on: September 17, 2013, 06:22:50 AM »
I thank you very much Norma!!!  So, in your video (20 quart mixer)....you're not mixing too very long...do you or have you ever done the Lehmann test for mixed dough??  I watched his video again last night, and he was running it 12 minutes!!!  I'm sure you've tried developing your dough for longer periods in the mixer, but you have obviously found something that works for you.  The reason I'm asking these questions, is because as I experiment with stretch and folds versus mixer, I'm hoping I'm not shortchanging the mixer by not developing my dough more.  More work to do...thank you for your time!!

John

John,

No, I am not mixing very long right now in the Hobart.   I used to follow the test Tom Lehmann used like Peter posted at Reply 440 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28694.html#msg28694 with taking a egg size piece of dough and form it into a ball and seeing it the dough skin would tear, but since that test is for development of bread and roll doughs I don't do that anymore. 

Tom Lehmann posts about the delayed oil addition method at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38163&hilit=delayed+oil#p38163

I am not sure what test you are referring to that Tom Lehmann mixes for 12 minutes in the video.  I am using All Trumps bleached and bromated flour in most of my Lehmann doughs at market now and I don't want the finished crusts to get too chewy.  That is another reason I don't mix too long.  The gluten development naturally takes place until the next day. 

When I talked to Joe Kelley the rep from General Mills he told me to mix the way I am now. 

I can understand the benefits of stretch and folds on a higher hydration dough, but I haven't really done any of those tests with my regular market doughs.  When I am at market on a Monday I try to find the easiest way to mix my doughs so it doesn't take me as long.  At home I can experiment more.

I did use Craig's methods of using stretch and folds for making a Neapolitan doughs though.  I can see the benefits of doing those stretch and folds for a Neapolitan dough. 

Will be watching to see if you find benefits of doing stretch and folds with a Lehmann dough.

Norma 
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #671 on: September 17, 2013, 08:18:59 AM »
Norma,

I believe that the video that John mentioned is this one:



You will note from Jeff Zeak's comment at 2:13 in the video that the dough is intentionally undermixed. The specific test that John referred to is the one that Tom Lehmann discusses starting at about 2:42 in the video. That method is the same one that is quoted in Reply 440 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28694.html#msg28694 that you referenced. It is not the gluten window test that bread makers use.

In my case, I often use the test that Tom shows and describes in the video but it depends on the type of dough I am trying to make. I am much more likely to use the test for doughs that have a hydration value that is too low for my basic KitchenAid stand mixer to be able to knead with relative ease and where the finished dough may not be of the desired quality. If necessary, I might also stop the mixer and do some intervention to knead the dough by hand to make a more cohesive dough, and I might also use a brief rest period to improve the hydration of the dough. For hydration values above about 60%, my mixer can adequately knead doughs at those hydration values, so I take the dough only to the point of slightly underkneading. Often I can accomplish ths result using only the flat beater attachment. I usually decide on the spot what specific knead regimen I am going to use, depending on the dough formulation and what the final dough should look and feel like. Most of my doughs tend not to be so high in hydration or so weak in gluten formation as to require stretch and folds.

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #672 on: September 17, 2013, 08:21:46 AM »
John,

Out of curiosity, after you have completed the series of stretch and folds, will the dough pass the gluten window test or will it still have an underkneaded character?

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #673 on: September 17, 2013, 10:57:56 AM »
John,

Out of curiosity, after you have completed the series of stretch and folds, will the dough pass the gluten window test or will it still have an underkneaded character?

Peter
Peter
I will certainly look at the window test when I try again.  Regarding the video you linked to....it really caused me concern when I watched it the other day.  Tom actually mixes pizza dough 12 minutes.  I've never come close to that...and I started doubting the results I was getting in my test.  That's why I'm asking the questions...i want to make sure I'm giving the mixing method by hook the very best representation that I can (especially in the lower hydrated doughs where the dough hook definitely has a chance to knead).  When I think about it further though, this is a video particularly made for commercial use, and I would imagine it's meant to make dough usable (easily) the next day.  If you notice the video of the dough on the next day, the doughs have changed alot.  I've mixed doughs that don't change at all in one night....of course there are a ton of factors (mix time, refrigeration, yeast percentage, hydration etc).

Peter, appreciate your input on how you mix your doughs and sometimes use the "hen's egg" test.  I'll let you know how the dough looks after my next stretch and fold routine.

John

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #674 on: September 17, 2013, 09:57:33 PM »
Norma,

I believe that the video that John mentioned is this one:



You will note from Jeff Zeak's comment at 2:13 in the video that the dough is intentionally undermixed. The specific test that John referred to is the one that Tom Lehmann discusses starting at about 2:42 in the video. That method is the same one that is quoted in Reply 440 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28694.html#msg28694 that you referenced. It is not the gluten window test that bread makers use.

In my case, I often use the test that Tom shows and describes in the video but it depends on the type of dough I am trying to make. I am much more likely to use the test for doughs that have a hydration value that is too low for my basic KitchenAid stand mixer to be able to knead with relative ease and where the finished dough may not be of the desired quality. If necessary, I might also stop the mixer and do some intervention to knead the dough by hand to make a more cohesive dough, and I might also use a brief rest period to improve the hydration of the dough. For hydration values above about 60%, my mixer can adequately knead doughs at those hydration values, so I take the dough only to the point of slightly underkneading. Often I can accomplish ths result using only the flat beater attachment. I usually decide on the spot what specific knead regimen I am going to use, depending on the dough formulation and what the final dough should look and feel like. Most of my doughs tend not to be so high in hydration or so weak in gluten formation as to require stretch and folds.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing that video from Jeff Zeak and Tom Lehmann.  I now recall watching that video a long while ago, but I don't do the “hen's egg test”.  Maybe I should start doing that test because I am probably not mixing my doughs right. 

Thanks for explaining what you do.

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #675 on: September 23, 2013, 07:07:07 PM »
I did the “hens egg test” on the regular batches of dough today.  I did mix the second time for 12 minutes on speed one after the olive oil was added.  I do have a rest period between the first and second mix.  This was just a small dough batch, but it didn't seem to look or feel too much different to me.  The dough was still is kind of taunt until it relaxes a little, or until the small amount of dough balls were formed.  Will see if there are any differences in the crusts tomorrow.

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #676 on: September 25, 2013, 07:59:20 PM »
This is just one pizza made with the dough from the “hens egg test”.  The dough did feel stronger, but was very easy to open.  The dough balls could be opened up into skins when the dough came right out of the fridge.  Of course the dough balls were harder to open when they were cold, but there were no tears in the skins when opening cold dough balls.  There was bubbling in some places if a cold dough ball was used though. 

I think I need to up the amount of yeast for this time of the year.  My final dough temperatures were about the same on Monday, but since it is cooler in my area now my refrigeration units run colder.  I guess that is because they don't have to run as hard.  I know it is not advised to just up the yeast amount, but that has worked for me in the past.  All of my dough balls yesterday were not fermented very much when taking them out of the refrigeration units.  Even when letting them sit out for a while at the cooler ambient room temperatures they did not ferment a lot more. 

I have to do some more tests on doing the “hens egg test”.   

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #677 on: September 25, 2013, 11:12:30 PM »
Interesting Norma
Seems like a heck of a lot of mixing doesn't it???  Pizzas look excellent.  Please show more of your experiments as you can.  I'm very interested in your assessment of the procedure. 

John

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #678 on: September 26, 2013, 07:21:20 AM »
Interesting Norma
Seems like a heck of a lot of mixing doesn't it???  Please show more of your experiments as you can.  I'm very interested in your assessment of the procedure. 

John

John,

Yes, it does seem like a heck of a lot of mixing.  :-\ I never would have remembered about that “hens eggs test” if you wouldn't have posted about it.  All of the dough balls felt very strong when opening them and they were easy to open, but I did not see any other differences this week.  I need to add some more yeast to see what happens if the dough balls ferment some more until the next day.  Do your temperatures and yeast amounts stay about the same all year long?  In my market situation the ups and downs of temperatures in the course of a whole year throw a wrench into different things.  Maybe even my flours suffers too in different temperatures.  I know the warehouse I pick my flours up at is not air-conditioned or heated.  I get confused on what the right way to mix is for a Lehmann dough, but I will try the “hens egg test” for awhile.   

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #679 on: September 26, 2013, 10:07:02 AM »
John,

Yes, it does seem like a heck of a lot of mixing.  :-\ I never would have remembered about that “hens eggs test” if you wouldn't have posted about it.  All of the dough balls felt very strong when opening them and they were easy to open, but I did not see any other differences this week.  I need to add some more yeast to see what happens if the dough balls ferment some more until the next day.  Do your temperatures and yeast amounts stay about the same all year long?  In my market situation the ups and downs of temperatures in the course of a whole year throw a wrench into different things.  Maybe even my flours suffers too in different temperatures.  I know the warehouse I pick my flours up at is not air-conditioned or heated.  I get confused on what the right way to mix is for a Lehmann dough, but I will try the “hens egg test” for awhile.   

Norma
Our yeast amounts are constant.....our temperatures vary all year long.... we get variances in our flours..so the temperature of our water is the variable we change most.   But because of the dough management system we've created for our specific dough....I don't think I have the same kinds of problems that you would have.  I really do want to hear about your experiences with your dough.....I keep forgetting sometimes, that maybe I like my pizza with a little different texture than one normally gets.  Having said that, my  way- undermixed dough in my experiments last week were better than the better-mixed dough.   BUT, I'm sure it's a different story making 5 dough balls compared to a busy guy making maybe 200...and I'm thinking that's the guy who really needs the test.  Looking forward to some conclusions from you Norma.

John


 

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