Author Topic: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market  (Read 50880 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #680 on: September 26, 2013, 10:24:05 AM »
Norma
I almost forgot......the next time you mix your dough to pass the Hen's egg test, will you also see how close your dough is to window paning....that's another one I'd like to see.
John


Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #681 on: September 26, 2013, 12:34:58 PM »
Our yeast amounts are constant.....our temperatures vary all year long.... we get variances in our flours..so the temperature of our water is the variable we change most.   But because of the dough management system we've created for our specific dough....I don't think I have the same kinds of problems that you would have.  I really do want to hear about your experiences with your dough.....I keep forgetting sometimes, that maybe I like my pizza with a little different texture than one normally gets.  Having said that, my  way- undermixed dough in my experiments last week were better than the better-mixed dough.   BUT, I'm sure it's a different story making 5 dough balls compared to a busy guy making maybe 200...and I'm thinking that's the guy who really needs the test.  Looking forward to some conclusions from you Norma.

John

John,

Thanks for telling me about your dough management system for your specific dough. 

Maybe I would have gotten better results if my yeast amounts would have been higher last week or my fridges would have run a little warmer.  I don't really know though.  I had some good batches of doughs that weren't not mixed nearly as long.  I really have no idea of how mixers mix that are much bigger than mine because I never tried them.  I probably won't have conclusions, just what happens from week to week.   

Norma
I almost forgot......the next time you mix your dough to pass the Hen's egg test, will you also see how close your dough is to window paning....that's another one I'd like to see.
John

I will try to remember to do that.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #682 on: September 27, 2013, 08:20:39 AM »
John,

I just wanted to mention a member I had been thinking about that did use long mix times.  His screenname was ThunderStik (Bill) and don't know if you recall him, but I recall him fondly.  I saw many photos of great pizzas he made using long mix times.  This is one of ThunderStik's posts at Reply 49 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11731.msg115160.html#msg115160  If you want to read more about how long Bill mixed doughs, one of his posts is at Reply 64 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.msg80167.html#msg80167  If you look through some of ThunderStik's posts you can see what delicious looking pizzas he made.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #683 on: September 27, 2013, 11:09:59 PM »
John,

I just wanted to mention a member I had been thinking about that did use long mix times.  His screenname was ThunderStik (Bill) and don't know if you recall him, but I recall him fondly.  I saw many photos of great pizzas he made using long mix times.  This is one of ThunderStik's posts at Reply 49 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11731.msg115160.html#msg115160  If you want to read more about how long Bill mixed doughs, one of his posts is at Reply 64 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.msg80167.html#msg80167  If you look through some of ThunderStik's posts you can see what delicious looking pizzas he made.

Norma
Very kind of you Norma.....those are"very" nice looking pizzas he made.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #684 on: September 27, 2013, 11:16:45 PM »
John,

Did you see the long mix times Bill used and got great looking pizzas?  I still can't understand all of that.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #685 on: September 28, 2013, 07:11:07 AM »
Bill (ThunderStik) was one of my all-time favorites on the forum. So it pained me greatly when he left the forum after being personally attacked by another member, who then himself proceeded to leave the forum shortly thereafter. Bill reminded me a lot of Chau and John (fazzari) in that they would take suggestions of others under advisement, and do so respectfully, but then go into their kitchens and do their own testing and experiments. And they would do it with style, humor, grace and humility.

Bill and I had many exchanges on the forum so I had a good opportunity to see what he was doing and why and how he got the good results he achieved. One of Bill's favorite things to do with a dough was to knead it for long periods of time. He would call it hammering the dough. He routinely used 20+ minutes of kneading but he took that out to 50 minutes to see what would happen to the dough. Apart from the fact that he had to stop the mixer from time to tme because it was a 'hurtin from the long kneads, especiallly when he used fairly low hydration values, what he found was that the long knead times increased the chew of the crust but not by much, by around 3% or so I believe he said. And Bill would get enormous oven spring. Eventually, I concluded that Bill's oven temperature and baking setup were responsible for the nice oven spring and final crust coloration that he achieved. He often referred members to this post to show his oven setup: Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8516.msg73660.html#msg73660. As can be seen in Reply 7, Bill used a combination of a pizza stone fairly high up in the oven and a large cast iron skillet on the top rack. You will note that the stone is thin. Bill said that he had thicker stones but the thinner stone worked better because it would lose heat during baking at about the same time that the top was done and, as a result, the bottom crust would not be burned or overbaked. Bill said that he would get very good oven spring without the cast iron skilllet but it is important to know that Bill's oven ran at around 600-650 degrees F. The purpose of the skillet, he said, was to radiate heat to brown the top of the crust.

I eventually wrote about the role and importance of high heat in baking pizzas. I did this in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg88410.html#msg88410. One of my favorite photos was the one showing Bill's kids helping Bill make pizza, at Replies 2 and 3 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9768.msg84806.html#msg84806.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #686 on: September 28, 2013, 10:53:46 AM »
Peter,

Thanks so much for posting more about Bill (ThunderStik).  I loved to watch Bill's experiments and miss his posts a lot.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #687 on: September 28, 2013, 11:48:01 PM »
Bill (ThunderStik) was one of my all-time favorites on the forum. So it pained me greatly when he left the forum after being personally attacked by another member, who then himself proceeded to leave the forum shortly thereafter. Bill reminded me a lot of Chau and John (fazzari) in that they would take suggestions of others under advisement, and do so respectfully, but then go into their kitchens and do their own testing and experiments. And they would do it with style, humor, grace and humility.

Bill and I had many exchanges on the forum so I had a good opportunity to see what he was doing and why and how he got the good results he achieved. One of Bill's favorite things to do with a dough was to knead it for long periods of time. He would call it hammering the dough. He routinely used 20+ minutes of kneading but he took that out to 50 minutes to see what would happen to the dough. Apart from the fact that he had to stop the mixer from time to tme because it was a 'hurtin from the long kneads, especiallly when he used fairly low hydration values, what he found was that the long knead times increased the chew of the crust but not by much, by around 3% or so I believe he said. And Bill would get enormous oven spring. Eventually, I concluded that Bill's oven temperature and baking setup were responsible for the nice oven spring and final crust coloration that he achieved. He often referred members to this post to show his oven setup: Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8516.msg73660.html#msg73660. As can be seen in Reply 7, Bill used a combination of a pizza stone fairly high up in the oven and a large cast iron skillet on the top rack. You will note that the stone is thin. Bill said that he had thicker stones but the thinner stone worked better because it would lose heat during baking at about the same time that the top was done and, as a result, the bottom crust would not be burned or overbaked. Bill said that he would get very good oven spring without the cast iron skilllet but it is important to know that Bill's oven ran at around 600-650 degrees F. The purpose of the skillet, he said, was to radiate heat to brown the top of the crust.

I eventually wrote about the role and importance of high heat in baking pizzas. I did this in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg88410.html#msg88410. One of my favorite photos was the one showing Bill's kids helping Bill make pizza, at Replies 2 and 3 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9768.msg84806.html#msg84806.

Peter
Thanks Peter
That was enjoyable...........and now I have to ask???  I noticed that Bill divides his dough later in the process, at least in a few of the threads I read...do you recall if he had a set strategy?  I've gotta say it..if he divided his dough closer to the bake rather than after the mix, I would say that is why he gets the tremendous spring in his dough, and of course the hot oven helps too.
John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #688 on: September 29, 2013, 01:33:28 PM »
John,

Bill (ThunderStik) was an experimenter. And until he made his first pizzas, he had never baked anything before in his life. His very first pizzas that he showed on the forum were based on dough recipes of Alton Brown and Peter Reinhart. There was no reballing or division later in the process. The photos of those initial pizzas can be seen in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8516.msg73652.html#msg73652. That thread also showed his oven setup that I mentioned before, in Reply 7. Note the oven spring of his pizzas.

Bill's next batch of pizzas that he showed on the forum were in this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8644.msg74857.html#msg74857. Again, no reballing or division later in the process. I should add that Bill was aware at the time of the notion of doing the division of the bulk dough later because he had read that Evelyne Slomon had used that method, as he noted in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8564.msg74090.html#msg74090.

Bill's next batch of photos of his pizzas were at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8699.msg75345.html#msg75345. Again, no reballing and no late division. And good oven spring.

I believe that the first time that Bill used a bulk room temperature fermentation and did the dough division later was in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9736.msg84469.html#msg84469. The dough described in that thread was a short term dough with only a small amount of yeast. This was an exception to Bill's long cold fermentation practice. But the pizzas did have very good oven spring.

Bill was also very careful in the way he opened up the skins and forced the gases to the rim, as he discussed at Reply 68 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.msg80219.html#msg80219. He was also fond of using long temper times, longer than what most people would use.

If I were to summarize Bill's method for achieving crusts with large rims, it would include the following:

1. Knead the dough for a long period of time, far longer than conventionally used. This should develop the gluten more fully and make it more efficient in capturing and retaining the gases of fermentation.

2. Take steps to create dough that will sustain a long period of cold fermentation (Bill did this by his long knead times and the addition of yeast late in the dough making process).

3. Use a long temper time at room temperature (three hours and longer), to allow the dough to soften and increase in volume.

4. Open the skin gently, starting at the center and working outwardly to force the gases to the rim.

5. Use a high oven temperature (in Bill's case, using the oven arrangement shown at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8516.msg73660.html#msg73660 and bake temperatures in excess of 600 degrees F).

Peter

Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #689 on: September 29, 2013, 11:41:08 PM »
Thanks for taking the time Peter
Loved reading Bill's thoughts....and especially loved the way he tried things!!!  I thought I had a morsel of insight regarding his division of doughs late in the game..oh well!!

John


Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #690 on: September 30, 2013, 09:00:57 AM »
Peter,

I think I read somewhere here on the forum that scott r posted about long mix times in a commercial environment producing better dough and pizza. I think that from one of your links about about Bill yesterday.  I can not find that post this morning and should have bookmarked that yesterday.  Do you recall where that post is?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #691 on: September 30, 2013, 10:43:04 AM »
I think I read somewhere here on the forum that scott r posted about long mix times in a commercial environment producing better dough and pizza. I think that from one of your links about about Bill yesterday.  I can not find that post this morning and should have bookmarked that yesterday.  Do you recall where that post is?
Norma,

I believe that the post you have in mind is this one:

Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8699.msg75846.html#msg75846.

Even though I was aware of the use of long knead times for some time (see, for example, Steve's post dating back to 2005 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,824.msg7537.html#msg7537), I was not prepared for knead times of 30 minutes or more. So, Bill's work in this area was an eye-opener for me that has stuck with me ever since and sharpened my awareness. But I have also come to understand and appreciate that there is a benefit in a commercial setting to slightly underkneading doughs. It imposes considerably less wear and tear on mixers, especially for low hydration doughs, and can mean fewer repair calls. Even Bill in a home setting had to give his mixer rests during the prolonged knead times that he used.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 10:44:48 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #692 on: September 30, 2013, 11:11:55 AM »
Norma,

I believe that the post you have in mind is this one:

Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8699.msg75846.html#msg75846.

Even though I was aware of the use of long knead times for some time (see, for example, Steve's post dating back to 2005 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,824.msg7537.html#msg7537), I was not prepared for knead times of 30 minutes or more. So, Bill's work in this area was an eye-opener for me that has stuck with me ever since and sharpened my awareness. But I have also come to understand and appreciate that there is a benefit in a commercial setting to slightly underkneading doughs. It imposes considerably less wear and tear on mixers, especially for low hydration doughs, and can mean fewer repair calls. Even Bill in a home setting had to give his mixer rests during the prolonged knead times that he used.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for finding that post from scott r.  Do you think he still advocates for a fairly long mix in a commercial setting?  I recall on the boardwalk thread that scott r posted that he thought Mack's dough had a fairly long mix.  I have always enjoyed scott r's posts in the past, but don't recall them all.  I did see Steve's post dating back to 2005 from your link about Bill.  I am not prepared to mix for 30 minutes, but I find that interesting when I probably have been under mixing my doughs at market by the “hens egg test” I just started doing.

Norma 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #693 on: September 30, 2013, 11:25:49 AM »
Thanks for finding that post from scott r.  Do you think he still advocates for a fairly long mix in a commercial setting?  I recall on the boardwalk thread that scott r posted that he thought Mack's dough had a fairly long mix.  I have always enjoyed scott r's posts in the past, but don't recall them all.  I did see Steve's post dating back to 2005 from your link about Bill.  I am not prepared to mix for 30 minutes, but I find that interesting when I probably have been under mixing my doughs at market by the “hens egg test” I just started doing.
Norma,

Like many of the members on this forum, Scott is always experimenting and researching and learning, both at home and, in Scott's case, as a consultant. As an example of this, you might reread the post he directed to you at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13524.msg135006/topicseen.html#msg135006.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #694 on: September 30, 2013, 11:43:18 AM »
Norma,

Like many of the members on this forum, Scott is always experimenting and researching and learning, both at home and, in Scott's case, as a consultant. As an example of this, you might reread the post he directed to you at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13524.msg135006/topicseen.html#msg135006.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for finding that post scott r directed to me.  I forgot about that post.  I guess I just have to keep experimenting with different mix times to see what works best with my dough for market.  I think John would be interested in reading what scott r posted about autolyse and stretch and folds in that a short mix time using the methods something like John is doing now can produce a great pizza.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #695 on: September 30, 2013, 06:52:29 PM »
John or anyone else that is interested,

I know someone probably won't be able to tell much from these photos taken today, but the first batch was mixed until all the flour was Incorporated (about 1 ½ minutes) and then rested for 10 minutes.  Then mixed on speed number one for another 15 minutes.  The delayed addition of the olive oil was also used.  I think it can be seen how the progression of the dough was though until it was balled.  The one photo shows a dough mass before it is cut, scaled and balled and how the dough can stretch, the final dough temperature, how the dough mass smooths out some and can stretch more after some dough is cut and scaled and then after all the dough batch is cut and scaled it does stretch more without tearing. If it is stretched too much it will tear though.  The second to last photo shows how the dough stretches by just lifting it up with my one hand. 

The last photo is of another batch of dough that was mixed 20 minutes with the same time first mix, rest and mix again.  I did add more yeast to my batches today and will see what happens tomorrow.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #696 on: September 30, 2013, 06:54:31 PM »
Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #697 on: September 30, 2013, 07:37:49 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for finding that post scott r directed to me.  I forgot about that post.  I guess I just have to keep experimenting with different mix times to see what works best with my dough for market.  I think John would be interested in reading what scott r posted about autolyse and stretch and folds in that a short mix time using the methods something like John is doing now can produce a great pizza.

Norma
Peter and Norma
Thanks for the info and the insights.....of course, my mind just races now wondering about the real differences between conventional mixing and folding.  One interesting thought...I'm taking an online artisan bread class from Reinhart...when he gets to talking about the stretch and fold, he says the difference is that the folding method has the gluten all arranged in contrast to the conventional mix method..which seems intuitive to me...maybe that's why it takes so little effort??
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #698 on: September 30, 2013, 07:44:15 PM »
John or anyone else that is interested,

I know someone probably won't be able to tell much from these photos taken today, but the first batch was mixed until all the flour was Incorporated (about 1 ½ minutes) and then rested for 10 minutes.  Then mixed on speed number one for another 15 minutes.  The delayed addition of the olive oil was also used.  I think it can be seen how the progression of the dough was though until it was balled.  The one photo shows a dough mass before it is cut, scaled and balled and how the dough can stretch, the final dough temperature, how the dough mass smooths out some and can stretch more after some dough is cut and scaled and then after all the dough batch is cut and scaled it does stretch more without tearing. If it is stretched too much it will tear though.  The second to last photo shows how the dough stretches by just lifting it up with my one hand. 

The last photo is of another batch of dough that was mixed 20 minutes with the same time first mix, rest and mix again.  I did add more yeast to my batches today and will see what happens tomorrow.

Norma
I think your pictures show alot Norma!!  I'll be interested on how the doughs of each batch are the same or are different....and what you can feel.  Can you believe after all this time, we're still talking about mixing dough??
John

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #699 on: September 30, 2013, 08:02:21 PM »

Thanks for the info and the insights.....of course, my mind just races now wondering about the real differences between conventional mixing and folding.  One interesting thought...I'm taking an online artisan bread class from Reinhart...when he gets to talking about the stretch and fold, he says the difference is that the folding method has the gluten all arranged in contrast to the conventional mix method..which seems intuitive to me...maybe that's why it takes so little effort??
John

John,

Interesting that you are taking an online artisan bread class from Peter Reinhart.  I have seen when making Craig's dough which is Neapolitan how the stretch and folds do make a better dough even in small amounts of about 3 dough balls.  Craig's dough is for another time though, but his methods are here on the forum.

Norma
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