Author Topic: My New York Pizza Experiments  (Read 6970 times)

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Online scott123

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2012, 03:14:51 PM »
Can I just get a plate at home depot? Is there anything I should watch out for like one has a coating of some type or something? Do you have a guess on price? Is it like 10 bucks or $100?

I'll post pictures of my next pie soon, I'm going to bake it in about an hour. I think it will be better by using the broiler to heat the stone but turning it off for the first part of bake.

*edit* Scott I've read tons of your post and seen the trips you've planned for people in NY, but I'm curious about your background. I haven't read that anywhere. Mind sharing?

Home Depot won't have steel plate.  To find steel plate, you'll need to look up metal in the yellow pages.  You want a36 hot rolled 'mild' steel plate.  The prices tend to vary. I've seen some people pay as little as $25, while others have paid $50. I don't think it will run you much more than $40.

Jeff, my day job is IT, but I am a self taught food scientist. Since reaching adulthood, I've read every book on food science that I could get my hands on. Within the last ten years, my obsession for food science morphed into a more specialized realm- pizza and oven thermodynamics. I've been eating NY style pizza, in all 6 boroughs, for 40 years, and I've been baking pizza at home for 20, but it wasn't until about 5 years ago that I experienced my thermodynamic breakthrough and was able to bake the pizza of my youth in my home oven. Since that time, I've pretty much focused on nothing else.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 08:56:04 PM by scott123 »


Online scott123

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 03:16:12 PM »
Some pictures of your pies would be nice too, Scott! ;)
I'd just like to see the results of steel plate baking by the guy who recommends it. :D

Actually, Steve, my soapstone setup pre-dates the steel plate 'revolution,' and, since it works for me, I haven't modified it. But, yeah, some pictures will be forthcoming.

Online scott123

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2012, 03:23:38 PM »
So I went and got Better for Bread as discussed just to see the differences. I didn't keep all other things the same though, so it's not a perfect comparison. This time I didn't forget the oil and i upped the sugar by .5%. I also didn't overproof the dough, it was in much better shape. I like how this one turned out best so far in the experiments. Bottom browning was much better.

This is definitely a step in the right direction. Bake time?  Could you post your recipe and your dough handling procedures?

As you dial in the recipe and achieve a more manageable dough, I think it will definitely be time for dialing back the overall dough quantity and stretching it to the same diameter, for a lower thickness factor.

I think a good chunk of the American public would make that pizza and be perfectly content, but if you have Neapolitan aspirations, then I think you should still continue on the steel plate course.  Not that steel plate will give you Neapolitan, but it will give you a little undercrust char, which I'm sure you'll appreciate.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 03:28:38 PM by scott123 »

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2012, 03:58:30 PM »
Hey thanks Scott for the feedback, you're really the only one who replies to my posts for some reason. I think the piece looked a little thicker than it was because I cut into a bubble. I did another bake today and I really liked it. I feel like it is getting pretty thin, but I can go thinner if need be. This most recent dough handled very very well. Also make a neapolitan pizza is no longer my goal, I am not going to pursue it again until I get an oven with clean cycle or get a WFO. I am moving in about 4 months so I will see what I end up with, until then a great NY style is what I am going for.

My recipe is

Dough 280G
Flour 100%
H20   61%
IDY    .5%
Salt  2.5%
Oil    2.5%
Sugar 2%


I mix the IDY into about 70% of the flour. I dissolve the sugar and salt in the water. I then add the 70% of the flour into the water, mix until mostly incorporated then let it sit for 10 minutes. I then drizzle in the oil and add the remaining flour while mixing on low speed till it is getting close to smooth (~2 min), but still has lumpy texture, and I can handle without it sticking too much. I bulk rise for about an hour then ball and put in the fridge. Bake time is right at 4 min.

Oh I also would love to see the pics of your pies.

Here is today's lunch- I know the pictures kind of suck. But I feel like I got really good color on the bottom comparatively. I really like the cornicone to have a crunch on the outside but then be very soft on the inside. I hate pizza that makes my jaw sore.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2012, 04:22:54 PM »
Hey thanks Scott for the feedback, you're really the only one who replies to my posts for some reason. I think the piece looked a little thicker than it was because I cut into a bubble. I did another bake today and I really liked it.

Scott's the guy you want replying to NY-style questions. Not much I can add to his expert advice. Your pie looks great!

CL
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Online scott123

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 05:01:51 PM »
That's impressive, Jeff. You sound very pleased and I think you have every right to be. That's an amazing looking undercrust.  Not to sound like a broken record here, but I would like you to be able to experience a home baked pie with some char.  Not that you'll end up always charring the undercrust (I don't), but it's a nice occasional variation.

As we move forward, could you start providing pics of your dough going into the fridge, coming out, and pre-forming? If you have a clear container and can show underneath the dough, that would be the most helpful. This crumb has a classic, somewhat bready KABF quality, which makes sense, considering BFB is a KABF clone. You can definitely avoid this breadiness, but you have to really nail the fermentation and the ingredient ratios.

In the photo title it references '2day.'  By '2day' do you mean that you put the dough in the fridge yesterday or was it 48 hours?  Maybe it's the lighting, but it looks a tiny bit young.  If you didn't go a full 48 hours, I would.

We talked about size being a big factor in the magic of NY style pizza, but thickness factor is equally as vital. This forum is overflowing with thick, bready NY-ish crusts, and many people prefer a crust with some heft, but, just like the char, I'd really like to see you try a lower thickness factor at least once. As you go really thin, it can get  a bit dainty, a tiny bit floppier, and it really limits the amounts of toppings you can use- but that's where NY style pizza really shines, imo.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2012, 05:03:13 PM »
Scott's the guy you want replying to NY-style questions. Not much I can add to his expert advice. Your pie looks great!

CL

Ya you're right and thanks, I just know that about every person on here makes better pizza than me and I love good critique.

Online scott123

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2012, 05:05:10 PM »
Scott's the guy you want replying to NY-style questions. Not much I can add to his expert advice.

Thanks, Craig. I have an equal amount of respect for you on the Neapolitan side.  When it comes to Neapolitan, you're the man.

Online scott123

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2012, 05:09:03 PM »
Ya you're right and thanks, I just know that about every person on here makes better pizza than me and I love good critique.

With that last pie, I wouldn't say 'every other person on here makes better pizza.'

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2012, 05:19:50 PM »
Scott- I do know what you mean about the char, and I do really like that flavor too. So you think the only way to make that happen is a steel plate? Do you know of any picture examples of undercrust on a steel plate in a home oven?

As far as the dough, when I make another pizza tomorrow with the last ball, I will take a picture in the container and pre-form.

2 Day means 48 hours. I am labeling them same day, 1day, 2day, and tomorrow will be 3day. (Speaking of this I should probably make a new batch tonight so I have some for 2 days from now) The one mistake I think I made was that I could have turned on the broiler a tiny bit earlier. It takes a bit for my broiler to kick in. I think I should be kicking it about 1:45 into the bake and I should take the pizza out at 3:45-3:50.

Ya I understand you with size. It's a bit hard because I'm not interested in leftovers, I would rather just have a brand new pizza. I have no else to help eat because my wife is sick of me making pizza, not because she doesn't want to eat it, but because she hates to eat so many carbs so often. I'm feeling as the thickness factor of the pies is similar to what I've had before, and if I hold it up the pizza will completely flop. However I do see my cornicone being thicker (and a bit breadier as you mentioned) than the NY style pies I have seen. Do you think both parts are too thick?

Also do you have a sample image of the pizza you're trying to describe that has been made in home oven (if the other pic I asked for doesn't already do this)? I feel seeing one of a similar size would be helpful because always seeing huge NY pies sometimes tricks me into distorting thicknesses.


Online scott123

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2012, 05:56:59 PM »
Jeff, based upon previous photos, I thought achieving this much undercrust color was a long shot, but you apparently beat those odds.  I think it's pretty obvious that your oven runs a bit hot, because I've never seen that stone produce that much color in 4 minutes in any typical 550 oven.  You've exceeded my expectations so far, so maybe you should keep at it. If this turns out to be as much color as you can get, though, then, yes, steel plate is the best option for getting char.

Here's a good example of the kind of char you can get with steel plate:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12887.msg127366.html#msg127366

Here's another

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17147.0.html

One more:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16428.msg161193.html#msg161193

When I talk about thickness factor, it's mostly directed at rim size.  It's hard to tell, but I think the thickness of your non rim area is good.  But you should definitely consider dialing the rim down a bit.  When you press out the rim, make it pretty small- maybe 1/2" diameter. As you knuckle stretch the pizza, the rim should get even smaller.

Here is a classic NY style thickness factor:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13112.0.html

if you look at it closely, it's less of a pronounced rim, and more of a taper.

Here's how they stretch the pizza

Pizza Town Stretch



Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2012, 06:15:55 PM »
Thanks, awesome feedback. The charring seemed very different in all 3 of the examples and the first looked very neo. I will probably have trouble getting that in my pies on my stone, unless somehow the recipe can change that.

As far as the rim, then ya I see how I am way off compared to that. I can fix it no problem, not sure about tomorrows 280g ball, I may need to go with a dough about 240G to fit it on the peel and stone. I usually have no problems opening a dough and do it very similar to the video, only difference is I let gravity work a bit more and don't pull quite as hard with my knuckles.

Offline norma427

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2012, 07:31:42 PM »
Jeff,

You are progressing nicely with Scott’s help and am sure you will achieve the kind of NY style pizza you want with Scott’s help.

I just wanted to show you what my friend Steve (Ev) can do with a cordierite stone in his home oven making NY style pizzas.  Steve’s home oven get to around 550 degrees F.  He bakes NY style pizzas in about 7 minutes and they are delicious.  This is the link to the thread where I tasted Steve’s NY style pizzas in his home oven starting at Reply 6 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17934.msg173823.html#msg173823  Steve usually does a 3 day cold ferment using a Lehmann dough formulation.

Steve also used another Lehmann dough formulation for a bake in his churches oven that sure wasn’t great in keeping the temperature up at.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18444.msg179266.html#msg179266

Norma
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2012, 04:36:53 PM »
Heres the new pics as promised. I took the ball out of the fridge and went golfing, so the dough ended up sitting out for almost 3 hours, I wish it would have been out shorter. The bake time also surprised me, I pulled it out at 3:25 (a bit early but it was way ahead of where I thought it would have been so I got flustered haha).

It was a tiny bit tougher and chewier than I would like. I hate when I feel like my jaw is working, I won't even eat mediocre steaks for that very reason.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2012, 11:34:48 PM »
So I just moved and in the move we now have a new oven. I just thought I'd share a pic from my first batch. I have gone from an electric oven to a gas one, and boy it is really different. I have only made on batch of dough so far and I am liking the results, but I definitely have some work to do to figuring out the best timing and setup for the oven. It is pretty cool seeing the pizza rise under the flame of the gas broiler.

Pizza bakes in about 3:20



Offline Jet_deck

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2012, 11:37:28 PM »
Dude, I would hit that 3:20 pizza any day of the week.  Keep cooking more pies with pictures.
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2012, 12:37:27 AM »
Thanks for the compliment! I just bought some more flour today so I can make some more dough.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2013, 04:26:44 PM »
We had some pizza today, the family liked it. Pizza is always a good lunch. I actually wish I would have cooked it a tad longer.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2013, 07:04:00 PM »
Looks great from here Jeff...won't take you long to dial in that new oven.  :chef:
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Offline pythonic

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Re: My New York Pizza Experiments
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2013, 03:19:32 PM »
Beautiful pies Jeff.

Nate
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