experiments with SP-5

[thezaman]

bill, was there a difference in texture. i usually go a little longer on my mix.it seem there is a point where the dough gets very smooth without any lumps. i may be taking it to far. how much flour was in that batch? the pizza looks good,it is a totally different bake than your 7 day ball.i wounder if you could tell a difference in flavor and a preference ?

[wheelman]

Larry,
it definately gets smoother the longer i mix it.  so many notes about keeping the kneading to a minimum make me try to stop sooner.  i'll try taking it further next time to see what happens.   that was 1600g batch using Caputo. the dough opened really easily but still stretched evenly.  maybe a little less tang than that last one but good flavor as is usual with the Ischia. i got a little sloppy because i was cooking multiple pies at once so it wasn't very photogenic!

how long do you usually mix in your SP5? does the dough completely smooth out?
bill 

[thezaman]

 bill i usually get the same look as you and stop at 8 minutes. i walked away from the mixer once and came back at 16 minutes and the dough was very smooth and soft. it seemed to have taken in mire air. the dough stretched very easily. the final product had nice texture. i am going to do two batches at some time this week 8 minute and 15 to see which makes a better neapolitan crust.

[thezaman]

 bill, made a batch of dough thursday 1200 grams of caputo,2.2 % salt, 66% hydration, 2 grams wet yeast. my water was 39 degrees and mixed for 12 minutes.the finished temperature was 77 degrees. this produced a wonderful batch of dough it was used after 12 hours of room temperature rise.

[wheelman]

larry, that makes me hungry!
it looks smoother than my dough has been getting with about 5 min less mixing.  how was the texture?  do you ball that directly for a 12 hr rise? 
i have a batch going now for tonight that i bulked at 64 deg for 10 hr and will have in balls for 30 hr. i'll let you know how that goes.
thanks,
bill

[thezaman]

 bill, i was happy with the dough.very easy to stretch, but strong. the 66% hydration let the dough pretty much fall to stretch.i used very little yeast so i bulk rose under a damp towel about two hours. then balled and room risen all day long, 12 hours total.
 bill, i like my little sp5 and with you help i hope we can come up with what is meant by point of pasta. when i am in Italy that is something i am going to try to get a answer for.we are visiting the caputo factory and I'm sure i can get an explanation.
 on the texture it was where my better batches have been. the 66 % hydration didn't feel at all wet out of the machine. probably proof that the mixer is doing its job.after the 12 hour rise it still was easy to work with. it did take a lot of flour to dry the outside up. no more than i see the neapolitan pizzaiolo's use.

[wheelman]

when mixing a smaller batch - 1000g instead of 1600g, it seems that the dough clears the bowl much earlier and easier.  i mixed my last batch for about 6 min after first mixing just long enough to incorporate everything and resting for 20 min.  it turned almost as smooth as Larry's picture at that point.  it was also a longer fermented dough with 61% hyd., 2.5% starter, 2.8% salt.  10 hr + 35 hr all at 63 f.  it baked off really well.  i think Craig is right about the two day vs 1 day fermentation.  i don't see anything about the dough that isn't better that way. 
bill

[wheelman]

not sure if these photos will show up well enough to make any good judgments, but they attempt to show the development of dough in the SP5.  What i'm hoping for is opinions as to when you would pull the plug.  i'm on 6 min, that seems to be the sweet spot.  i like about 42 hours total at 63deg for fermentation.  mostly in balls - either 4 or 10 hours bulk depending on how late it gets. 
first photo shows incorporated dough after about a 1 min mix.  second after a 25 min rest, then one per min.  Larry goes further, i couldn't keep mixing after 7, i thought it was too much.  the dough never gets totally smooth.  what do you think?
thanks!
bill

[wheelman]

and another 6 min shot from another batch followed by the last shot from today:

[Matthew]

not sure if these photos will show up well enough to make any good judgments, but they attempt to show the development of dough in the SP5.  What i'm hoping for is opinions as to when you would pull the plug.  i'm on 6 min, that seems to be the sweet spot.  i like about 42 hours total at 63deg for fermentation.  mostly in balls - either 4 or 10 hours bulk depending on how late it gets. 
first photo shows incorporated dough after about a 1 min mix.  second after a 25 min rest, then one per min.  Larry goes further, i couldn't keep mixing after 7, i thought it was too much.  the dough never gets totally smooth.  what do you think?
thanks!
bill

Hi Bill,
I incorporate the flour slowly & end up going for a total of 10 minutes.  I stop once the dough goes white.

Matt

[wheelman]

thanks Matt,
I'm not sure what you mean by "goes white".  maybe i haven't mixed long enough to see that.  is this a subtle change as the air content increases maybe?  is the dough totally smooth at that point?
bill

[Matthew]

Yes. It it very smooth & silky at that point.

[thezaman]

matt, do you take a temperature of you dough to see what it is at point of pasta?
 
your average mix time was 10 minutes? and the dough changes from the slightly yellow appearance to .do you feel that is a good reference point?

is that something you use at the pizzeria for pro batches?

[Matthew]

matt, do you take a temperature of you dough to see what it is at point of pasta?
 
your average mix time was 10 minutes? and the dough changes from the slightly yellow appearance to .do you feel that is a good reference point?

is that something you use at the pizzeria for pro batches?

No I never take the temperature.  6 minutes of kneading on the SP5 will bring you to moderate gluten development.  The 10 minutes total mix time includes 2-4 minutes of incorporating the flour.

At the restaurant I mix for about half hour. 10 minutes to slowly incorporate the flour & about 20 minutes thereafter.  At that point it is still not even close to windowpane. Bare in mind that I am doing 40kilos of dough in a 35 kilo capacity mixer.

Matt

[wheelman]

i've figured out that the quantity of dough you make in the SP-5 has a big impact on the mixing time.  I made 3 batches for an event last weekend with 3.3kilos of flour each.  i used my normal mixing time of around 7 min after the rest.  the dough was nothing like what i normally get with 1k. batches.  it was super sticky and spread out.  i don't think it was the yeast action, even though we ended up outside in warm weather for a while.  i could tell when i balled the dough that i was in for an interesting night. 
It looks like my eye for point of pasta still needs more work.  the dough looked ready to me.
i'm guessing that the larger batch didn't get the gluten development of the smaller batch in the same mixing time.  maybe that's why Matt is using longer mixing times? 
it still worked out but the skins were auto-opening and easy to make a mess of.  the look reminded me of Keste dough.  I hate it when i learn the hard lessons on the big days!  i'm pretty sure i'll know next time though. 
bill

[Matthew]

i've figured out that the quantity of dough you make in the SP-5 has a big impact on the mixing time.  I made 3 batches for an event last weekend with 3.3kilos of flour each.  i used my normal mixing time of around 7 min after the rest.  the dough was nothing like what i normally get with 1k. batches.  it was super sticky and spread out.  i don't think it was the yeast action, even though we ended up outside in warm weather for a while.  i could tell when i balled the dough that i was in for an interesting night.  
It looks like my eye for point of pasta still needs more work.  the dough looked ready to me.
i'm guessing that the larger batch didn't get the gluten development of the smaller batch in the same mixing time.  maybe that's why Matt is using longer mixing times?  
it still worked out but the skins were auto-opening and easy to make a mess of.  the look reminded me of Keste dough.  I hate it when i learn the hard lessons on the big days!  i'm pretty sure i'll know next time though.  
bill

Bill,
You may have to go a little longer for that quantity of flour.  If you are using the DDT method the friction factor is going to be about 1.5-2 degrees for every minute.  If you are using Hamelmans method, the friction factor will be 26.

I just purchased an 8kg spiral so I am selling my SP5.

Matt