10h dough

[TXCraig1]

Craig i am also curious about this 10h dough made with SD...

From my experiments with bread, I'm thinking yes, but at a high temp fermentation - around 95F maybe.

[dellavecchia]

I just finished baking a 12 hour dough with a 10% starter - actually a levain. It had all the qualities of good NP pizza as well as a complexity of flavor. The fermentation hovered at 68-70 degrees for 10 hours, and then 85 for 2 hours. I even got good leoparding. It is basically making bread with a preferment.

John

[Matthew]

Matt, for texture? Do you feel the same for sourdough?

Craig,
I have never done a 10-12 hour with starter alone.  I have done it several times using yeast & a bit of old dough.

Matt

[Jackie Tran]

From my experiments with bread, I'm thinking yes, but at a high temp fermentation - around 95F maybe.

Andre & Craig, I've made plenty of pizza (both NP, NY and inbetween) in the 8-12h room temp range with a starter.  You get a great texture and flavor.  You can go high temp if you want but room temp works best for me.  The benefit is you don't have the enzyme activity to contend with.  You can dial in the flavor to any degree you want by varying your percentage of starter, the starter you use and at what stage, and fermentation temps.  

The only thing you have to adjust is your hydration.  You'll want to go about 2-3% higher than your normally use to get a similar texture and moistness.  Ischia has plenty of flavor.  I would start with room temps, see if you like it, and then try a higher temp.  But room temps will do you fine.

Here's a 12h room temp pie made with starter.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14201.msg144552.html#msg144552

[andreguidon]

John, what is the difference between a starter and a levain? i have always thought that it was the same.

[Jackie Tran]

Andre, your pies look PRO.  How did they eat? Are you going to open up a pizzeria? 

John, the crumb looks great.  How did she eat?

[TXCraig1]

Craig, I've made plenty of pizza (both NP, NY and inbetween) in the 8-12h room temp range with a starter.  You get a great texture and flavor.  You can go high temp if you want but room temp works best for me.  The benefit is you don't have the enzyme activity to contend with.  You can dial in the flavor to any degree you want by varying your percentage of starter, the starter you use and at what stage, and fermentation temps.  

The only thing you have to adjust is your hydration.  You'll want to go about 2-3% higher than your normally use to get a similar texture and moistness.  Ischia has plenty of flavor.  I would start with room temps, see if you like it, and then try a higher temp.  But room temps will do you fine.

Here's a 12h room temp pie made with starter.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14201.msg144552.html#msg144552

What was the hydration and starter % on that beautiful pie?

[Jackie Tran]

What was the hydration and starter % on that beautiful pie?

IIRC, the hydration is 68% and the amount of starter is 10% of the flour weight at room temps of 75F.  But I live in a dry climate, so you'll probably be around 64% hydration for a RT.  

A few more examples that you had liked.  12h RT IDY vs CY

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14201.msg170775.html#msg170775

You can make great pizza in the 8-12h range.  You can also adjust your starter amount between 8% -12% for a 12h depending on flour strength and hydration.

[TXCraig1]

IIRC, the hydration is 68% and the amount of starter is 10% of the flour weight at room temps of 75F.  But I live in a dry climate, so you'll probably be around 64% hydration for a RT. 

A few more examples that you had liked.  12h RT IDY vs CY

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14201.msg170775.html#msg170775

You can make great pizza in the 8-12h range. 

Any bulk or all balls?

[dellavecchia]

John, what is the difference between a starter and a levain? i have always thought that it was the same.

Andre - A levain is just a preferment that is made with an amount of natural yeast, or a starter. Eventually it will ferment back into a starter.

Chau - I am beginning to see very distinct lines between these types of doughs and those made with super long fermentations. You are correct in that you need to up the hydration a bit to get the same softness. These pies were very satisfying, tender, and flavorful.

John

[Jackie Tran]

Any bulk or all balls?

I would keep the bulk to ball time ratio the same as you have been using.   For my personal taste and preference, I go by volume and will bulk to about 50-75% before balling, but it all depends on your hydration, your mixing times, and the strength of your dough at time of balling.  So if you've been balling when the dough has risen to 50% (regardless of time), I would keep it at that.

Of course with a 8-12h dough, bulk and ball times happen a lot quicker, so you'll have to watch it.  And the window of useability is decreased as well.  You can slow down or hasten the growth of the balls by adjusting fermentation temps as needed.  It may vary from batch to batch.   

[Jackie Tran]

Andre - A levain is just a preferment that is made with an amount of natural yeast, or a starter. Eventually it will ferment back into a starter.

Chau - I am beginning to see very distinct lines between these types of doughs and those made with super long fermentations. You are correct in that you need to up the hydration a bit to get the same softness. These pies were very satisfying, tender, and flavorful.

John

John for fun, I have even made 2 hour doughs with 50%+ starters (levain) and warm fermentation.  But if you want the respect and admiration of the members here, you DON'T make sub 4 hour doughs b/c everyone and their brother knows it will make crappy pizza.    JK, I hope I didn't offend too many with that joke.  With a starter, the overall time of fermentation (8h dough vs 30h dough) doesn't really affect flavors.  What I mean is, I truely doubt anyone here can discern a flavor difference between a 10h starter dough versus a 36hour starter dough.   What you will discern, is the crumb or texture difference from the enzyme activity and possibly digestibility depending on the strength of the flour and how much pizza you eat.  But for me and digestibility, 8-10 hours is about the limit.  Below that, the texture is the same, if done right, but digestibility is not.

As far as the texture is concern, 8-12 hour doughs yields a better texture IMO than a longer fermented dough and are much easier to make.  With a longer fermented dough, depending on the temp of fermentation and particularly room temps or warm temp fermented doughs, you have to deal with enzyme activity which favors digestibility but not necessarily crumb textures.  If you can already make a good long fermented dough at room temps, then making 8-12h doughs at room temps will be a piece of pie.  Of course, none of this is scientific, just anecdotal.  

[TXCraig1]

John for fun, I have even made 2 hour doughs with 50%+ starters (levain) and warm fermentation.  But if you want the respect and admiration of the members here, you DON'T make sub 4 hour doughs b/c everyone and their brother knows it will make crappy pizza.    JK, I hope I didn't offend too many with that joke.  With a starter, the overall time of fermentation (8h dough vs 30h dough) doesn't really affect flavors.  What I mean is, I truely doubt anyone here can discern a flavor difference between a 10h starter dough versus a 36hour starter dough.   What you will discern, is the crumb or texture difference from the enzyme activity and possibly digestibility depending on the strength of the flour and how much pizza you eat.  But for me and digestibility, 8-10 hours is about the limit.  Below that, the texture is the same, if done right, but digestibility is not.

As far as the texture is concern, 8-12 hour doughs yields a better texture IMO than a longer fermented dough and are much easier to make.  With a longer fermented dough, depending on the temp of fermentation and particularly room temps or warm temp fermented doughs, you have to deal with enzyme activity which favors digestibility but not necessarily crumb textures.  If you can already make a good long fermented dough at room temps, then making 8-12h doughs at room temps will be a piece of pie.  Of course, none of this is scientific, just anecdotal.  

50% bakers yeast starter not SD, right?

[Jackie Tran]

50% bakers yeast starter not SD, right?

No, it was SD.  On my next bake, I'll try to remember to do one and make a post.

[TXCraig1]

50% mature SD culture and it didn't dissolve the dough into mush? I've seen it happen at 35% let alone 50%. Wow.

[Jackie Tran]

50% mature SD culture and it didn't dissolve the dough into mush? I've seen it happen at 35% let alone 50%. Wow.

Craig, I use a young active starter and not a mature active starter.   If you make a starter or leaven starting with a 10% seed at 100% hydration, it may be ready in 6+ hours to use.  I use it just as it is doming and not on the way down.  I taste it to make sure its not too acidic.  At this point it behaves just like any other starter but will ferment the dough quicker (the more you use that is).  If you are going to use a 50% plus starter amount, you have to account for the huge jump in hydration.  For example, a dough that is 63% hydration, a 50% starter (of the flour amount) will increase the hydration by 7%, so you end up with a 70% total hydration, so you will have to adjust your original hydration down to end up at your desired hydration level.   The starter behaves the same just quicker or slower.

But a word of caution to anyone wanting to use a high starter or leaven amount.  You can't simply pull an old starter from the fridge with hooch, mix it back in and use it.  If you do, this is where the acids will ruin your dough.  You need an active healthy young starter.  That means dump the hooch and most of the starter (95-99% of the old starter) feed and refeed and get it active at room temps prior to using it.  You want to taste it first and make sure it's not too acidic.  A little is okay.  It should smell sweet or a bit fruity.  This constitutes an active young starter.  If you pull a starter from the fridge that hasn't been fed within a week, even if it has no hooch, it may have a lot of acid.  If you only dump half and refeed only 1 time, once it becomes active, you'll have more of an active mature starter.  If you taste the raw starter at this point, it will have quite a bit more bite to it than a young starter.  Big difference in the end crumb texture mainly due to the excess acids.

If your starter was fed with a small seed amount 2 days prior and kept in the fridge for just a few days, it can come out of the fridge, be warmed to room temps actively or passively, and be ready to use within 2-3 hours without feeding and have very little acid in it.  It just depends on the state of your starter and how you maintain it.

Chau

[andreguidon]

I just finished baking a 12 hour dough with a 10% starter - actually a levain. It had all the qualities of good NP pizza as well as a complexity of flavor. The fermentation hovered at 68-70 degrees for 10 hours, and then 85 for 2 hours. I even got good leoparding. It is basically making bread with a preferment.

John

Nice crumb John!

Andre, your pies look PRO.  How did they eat? Are you going to open up a pizzeria? 

John, the crumb looks great.  How did she eat?

thanks Chau! about the pizzeria, its a maybe...

[Jackie Tran]

Andre, please let us know so we can root for you! 

I also wanted to add another thing about using a high percentage starter for a same day dough.  You can do the calculations using the preferement calculator in the tools section or your can do it by hand.  I prefer to do it by hand.   If you do it by hand, you must recalculate the % of your other ingredients like salt.   

Assuming that you feed the starter with 50/50 flour and water, divide the weight of the starter used in 2 and add half of that to the flour side and water side and recalculate your new hydration ratio.  You will also have to based salt amounts and any other ingredients used based on the new flour amount, that is the flour used plus the amount of flour used in making the starter.  The huge starter amount in essence will increase your hydration AND dilute your formula ingredients.  Your typical 3% salt will no longer be and be lowered, so you will have to increase it to adjust for the diluting effect of the big starter amount.

BUT if you are only using a 10% starter (of the flour amount) for a 12 hour room temp dough, the diluting effect is small and not a big deal.  This only really applies if you want to use 50-60% starter. 

Chau

[TXCraig1]

Craig, I use a young active starter and not a mature active starter.   If you make a starter or leaven starting with a 10% seed at 100% hydration, it may be ready in 6+ hours to use.  I use it just as it is doming and not on the way down.  I taste it to make sure its not too acidic.  At this point it behaves just like any other starter but will ferment the dough quicker (the more you use that is).  If you are going to use a 50% plus starter amount, you have to account for the huge jump in hydration.  For example, a dough that is 63% hydration, a 50% starter (of the flour amount) will increase the hydration by 7%, so you end up with a 70% total hydration, so you will have to adjust your original hydration down to end up at your desired hydration level.   The starter behaves the same just quicker or slower.

But a word of caution to anyone wanting to use a high starter or leaven amount.  You can't simply pull an old starter from the fridge with hooch, mix it back in and use it.  If you do, this is where the acids will dissolve your dough as Craig mentioned.  You need an active healthy young starter.  That means dump the hooch and most of the starter (95-99% of the old starter) feed and refeed and get it active at room temps prior to using it.  You want to taste it first and make sure it's not too acidic.  A little is okay.  It should smell sweet or a bit fruity.  This constitutes an active young starter.  If you pull a starter from the fridge that hasn't been fed within a week, even if it has no hooch, it may have a lot of acid.  If you only dump half and refeed only 1 time, once it becomes active, you'll have more of an active mature starter.  If you taste the raw starter at this point, it will have quite a bit more bite to it than an young starter.  Big difference in the end crumb texture mainly due to the excess acids.

If your starter was fed with a small seed amount 2 days prior and kept in the fridge for just a few days, it can come out of the fridge, be warmed to room temps actively or passively, and be ready to use within 2 hours without feeding and have very little acid in it.  It just depends on the state of your starter and how you maintain it.

Chau

Even such, I'm plesantly surprised. When I was working on the UPN project, I was able to dissolve a dough at not much over 30%. That culture was ~20% seed and 24 hours. I guess a lot changes between 6 and 24 hours.

Thanks.

[Jackie Tran]

For sure Craig.  Be sure to taste the starter before using it, it should not taste acidic at this point.  Once it passes the float test, it is ready.  The flavor will come in towards the end of fermentation, particularly the extent of fermentation that is allowed.  It will happen much quicker than with your typical dough because it's a much bigger seed amount (20% versus 1%).
Do keep us posted.