Author Topic: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa  (Read 2170 times)

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Offline Tulsakid

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2014, 06:13:23 AM »
Actually.

Its not difficult to tell the difference on pizza... Those who cant, really are not that good and taste testing or etc.
Fortuanately most people cant.  So faking a recipe is easy to get away with.

Fact is the new SS is not even close to 'original'  shotgun sams pizza...
1. Original owners in  a Tulsaworld article - say so.
2. Its more like mazzios when its good..and more like CICI's when its bad.
3. Even if they had the recipe, they are not making the pizza the way it was done at SS.
4. Location is more like a BAR version of SS, and it seems more of a token effort to be similar.
5. Way too small to be even close to SS...  Its at least half the size of the 19th&Sheridan location for sure... and approxiamtely similar on 51st&Yale originals.
6. Attitude  & experience... -- too many mistakes made

As one who has collected a huge amt of shotgun sams stuff from working there... I tried the new place.. Its a waste of time.
Even if I ignore the SS aspects... the pizza itself wasnt that good for me.. I will continue going to Mazzios.
No surprise there.. Mazzios founder used to work at Shotgun Sams.


Offline Tulsakid

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2014, 06:32:05 AM »
Part of the problem early on.. was that you dont make the dough daily unless you want to underestimate how much to do.
Understandable somewhat.

At SS we made dough for more than a days worth.. especially on friday.. we would on Friday make enough dough to go thru a
normal Saturday... and yet still be making enough dough to potentially get to Sunday.. though a unusual weekend would use it up.
We often new by noon that we would need to produce more..

Another item.. we never ever  ever  ever took orders thta would use up dough or product..  except for walkins.
Ie; All very large togo/call in orders... had to be pre-ordered.

Experience would have told them to not take that large a order on day 1 except to premake or etc..

When I was there we often got pre-orders from TPS (Tulsa Schools)..and it was often for more than one school.
Those pre-orders were often 1-2 days before delivery or pickup. 

Buffet  - very easy way to increase profit margin..   Im suprised they are ruling it out.
It also reduces waste - I know the last time i was there, they were actually tossing out pizza per order-mistakes.
At SS original - we never tossed mistakes - we would either eat it ourselves for lunch or put it on Buffet (more common).

For me the current location pizza is not even close to original SS, at least on the method..    even if they had the original recipe they are not making it the way it was then.


Having said that,  I cant stand greasy pizza like Cici's and the first time I went to the new location.. the pizza was litterally the worst I ever had.
While the pizza my wife had was ok --- 
Yet in both cases it took more than 45 minutes.   
I should have gotten the pizza free per that alone.. all he did was offer free drinks for next time.


Offline nick57

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2014, 09:10:54 AM »
For a taste of nostalgia, Mondo's makes a pretty good pie. CiCi's is bottom of the barrel. Mazzio's makes a consistent pie, and the buffet is a bargain. I don't think Tulsa has a great pizza joint. Do you have a fave? Andolini's is pretty good. But I did get a slice from their food truck, and I think it was one of the worst slices I have ever had.

Offline Tulsakid

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2014, 12:08:34 AM »
Reality folks.. he could easily have handeld the inital 'too much business' he had...
Plus if he was to do it the way the original SS did it.. he would be making 2 days worth of day regularly.

I myself would have prepered for day 1 to have $15k or more in business...   even if it meant huge waste.
It costs more to make dough on the fly than it does to overproduce....

I myself worked the original, and our saturdays were consistanly more in one day than this new place makes in probably 1-2 weeks of its initial business.
I relize Im guessing.. but note.. at my SS we could easily make hundreds of pizza a hour.... easily..   
I myself was a slow cook on pizza making (I was superfast dishwasher,busboy,bartender, and the fastest cashier).

I worked with people who could easily make a pizza from scratch in a couple of minutes.. (record was 1 minute by a past manager).

NOte that  we always had up to 72 pizza skins pre-sauced and pre-cheesed (usually about 12 of each of the sizes,  and would have two people doing nothing but that.
Dough skins were already cut & perforated and stacked.. by 200-400 on Thursday thru Sunday.. half that the rest of the week.

In all cases we always had buffet (salad and pizza) .. at least while I was there from 1974 on.


Running out of dough, is a b.s. response... Yes restaurants run out of product at times.. but not on dough.... in the case of pizza.   

We also would have enough meat (pork or beef) precooked ready for use for  sales in the 5 digits... if we ran out of anything, it was often sandwich related or Spagetti related..

If we ran out of cheese we always had a second cheese choice we would use... So we never ran out of that ever.

For me the only thing I ever  run out of .. was the paper tape used for sending orders from the cashier station to where the cooks made the pizza (5 ft away).

HAlf way thru the biggest night i ever saw there...  I had to start doing all orders by hand.. and I dont write good.. fortunatley we all knew the menu well enough that It didnt take much.

Oh, the only other thing was i ran out of cash several times.--- but they had a safe full of cash.. and it was well protected...   I think I personaly handled $20k in business..


The new place is a major joke.. I eat mostly at mazzios but will try out new places.. and there are some steak houses that acutally make pretty good (almost SS like) pizza.

Offline nick57

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2014, 08:15:47 PM »
That sounds about right Tulsakid. Anytime I went it was always busy. The parking lot always had a lot of cars when I drove by. It seems to me, he did not get enough info from Doug on how to run a pizza joint, or did not bother to ask. There was a lot of anticipation about the reopening and they had a ready made fan base. Even if the pizza was not exactly the same as the original, if it was run well, and the customers felt like they were welcomed, it would have been a success. The atmosphere and the excitement of the staff is enough to make a place successful and can give lasting memories. I think the success of the original S's was that it was a fun place to go, the food was good, and they created a fun place to go after a game or practice. At least that is what I have gotten from people who loved the place. The pie I had there was pretty good, but not what I remembered . The waitress was very nice. But, I thought he did not give any thought to the dining experience, It feels like a dive bar.

  I think what happened to him, happened to a friend of mine. He managed the bar Fourplay, which is now the Colony at 28th and Harvard. He worked and worked to buy the place, it took about 2 years. He got what he wanted, it was a popular TU bar. Once he acquired it, his attitude changed. He acted like he did not want to be there, and was rude to the customers. People left and the business went downhill. He lost loyal customers that had be going there for years. He lost the bar and now it is a successful neighborhood hang out. I believe this is what happend to the guy, He was excited to open the place, but was not prepared for the hard work it would take to make it successful. I think he knew he was in over his head, and at a loss of what to do about it.  Too bad you did not give it a shot.

I hate to ask, but this is a place of sharing recipes. Could you give some insight on the dough prep, and anything about the sauce and other ingredients? I for one, as well as others here are always looking for thin and crispy recipes. I have learned to make cracker crusts to all the way to NY style. Cracker thin and crispy is one of the hardest pizzas to make at home. Do you make pies any more? I had tried for years, but had no success till I came to this forum. It took about 3 years for me to get consistent results, but I can only make so many pies with out becoming Fat Bastard from Austin Powers.

 As for local steak houses that make quality pies, pass along some names, please :) I am always looking for a good pie. There is  some good pizza joints, but I am always looking for something new a delicious. Glad you are member, hope you enjoy what we have to offer, and will appreciate what you can bring to community.

Offline Tulsakid

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2014, 12:55:26 AM »
That sounds about right Tulsakid. Anytime I went it was always busy. The parking lot always had a lot of cars when I drove by. It seems to me, he did not get enough info from Doug on how to run a pizza joint, or did not bother to ask. There was a lot of anticipation about the reopening and they had a ready made fan base. Even if the pizza was not exactly the same as the original, if it was run well, and the customers felt like they were welcomed, it would have been a success. The atmosphere and the excitement of the staff is enough to make a place successful and can give lasting memories. I think the success of the original S's was that it was a fun place to go, the food was good, and they created a fun place to go after a game or practice. At least that is what I have gotten from people who loved the place. The pie I had there was pretty good, but not what I remembered . The waitress was very nice. But, I thought he did not give any thought to the dining experience, It feels like a dive bar.

I think what happened to him, happened to a friend of mine. He managed the bar Fourplay, which is now the Colony at 28th and Harvard. He worked and worked to buy the place, it took about 2 years. He got what he wanted, it was a popular TU bar. Once he acquired it, his attitude changed. He acted like he did not want to be there, and was rude to the customers. People left and the business went downhill. He lost loyal customers that had be going there for years. He lost the bar and now it is a successful neighborhood hang out. I believe this is what happend to the guy, He was excited to open the place, but was not prepared for the hard work it would take to make it successful. I think he knew he was in over his head, and at a loss of what to do about it.  Too bad you did not give it a shot.

I hate to ask, but this is a place of sharing recipes. Could you give some insight on the dough prep, and anything about the sauce and other ingredients? I for one, as well as others here are always looking for thin and crispy recipes. I have learned to make cracker crusts to all the way to NY style. Cracker thin and crispy is one of the hardest pizzas to make at home. Do you make pies any more? I had tried for years, but had no success till I came to this forum. It took about 3 years for me to get consistent results, but I can only make so many pies with out becoming Fat Bastard from Austin Powers.

As for local steak houses that make quality pies, pass along some names, please :) I am always looking for a good pie. There is  some good pizza joints, but I am always looking for something new a delicious. Glad you are member, hope you enjoy what we have to offer, and will appreciate what you can bring to community.

From what I have heard.. He got no info from either of the original owners...even so it would be more correct to get the recipe details from Tom...because Tom did have updated versions of the original recipes ....

Recipe wise.. its all abourt making sure its either cracker like crust.. or super thin/perforated and no bubbling of the skin... also that the skin should be stored for a bit before use..
Dont make the dough and use it before it cures out... ie;  last time i did make it... I would litterally wait till the next day..

Its really more about method than recipe.. you could litterally come close by using any recipe and just make sure its cornmealed some... but not greasy... and make the sauce be somewhat better than ragu level ... ie; more flavor and meat...  also do not do the skins the way most places do with a pressure type machine that will take a ball of dough and flatten it out..

You have to use a roller way and reroll it ... a lot .. when I was the dough roller.. I would take a quartr of the huge trashcan of dough and use it to roll with... that one batch would generate about 40-50 skins (large)...  easy... I would use a smaller amt to get skins out quicker...     It would go back and forth in the rolller at least 10-15 times... at times more.

Making these skins woiuld take me up to 45 minutes...  but the cooks could take any skins made and make a huge amt of pizzas in no time flat... two painters could do 72 pizzas in 5 minutes (paint with sauce and cheese)...     I was a very slow non-dough roller cook..  was super fast cashier/bartender/busboy/dishwasher/pizza slicer.

Ultimately the current place, opened with no experience.. no restaurant should open without the owner or manager having experience directly related to what they sell.

If I was to open my own shotgun sams.> I guarantee you I would have started with $1million plus in cash, and have doug & toms blessing, possibly even have them involved as minority owners,  and definately do merchandising..and especially immediatley consider buffets (salad & /or pizza).

Personally I wouldnt want any kind of bar, though I would consider those who are truely more like regular restaurants - maybe even former mazzio locations that still are around but empty.

MY problem in sharing recipe... is mine is specifically a cut down version of Toms recipe.. I will not post it ...  In my view, its a recipe worth a fortune.

If I were the original owners and this new guy somehow got it.. I woud have sued him.

However my assumption iis that there is probably some variant of 'trademark abandonment' or similar...  maybe.

Im not sure on that.. I used to have a business myself ..and I still own the rights to the name and logo..and if somebody where to use it... it would cost them dearly if they use it without compensating me...   from what I read.. .there has been no compensation to the originals.

The current new place pizza tastes more like a variant of mazzios when its good..and a variant of cici's when its bad.

Again, the way to approximate old ss, is method more than food content...   

The dough should sit for at least half a day or more in a fridge..
Once you start, get it rolled... dont do  tossing... that was never shotgun sams method. you will never get SS pizza by tossing like some places do.
If you have to handstretch the skin to get to a size wanted.. you still are not doing it right.
Rolling it such that you could litterally 'template' cut it at the desired size.. is right.

Using the usual either conveyour ovens or 'old box' ovens.. or similar .. is good.. but if you use what I have seen in some places.. which are oven like 'ronco' cookers or similar... thats not it.

I will admit, its been 4 years since Ive done the pizza... in my current polace I dont have a pizza cooker that had custom made at old locaiton..  and it was such I wasnt going to move it.

Cracker thin,  and cripsy is difficult, but its all in the prep...  Ultimately what I did is i would make enough dough for 4-5 large pizzas and handroll it ... but would be doing it with a custom made roller kinda think of a 'old style' washing machine'...   which I had modified, to have a tray going up to it..and down from it on other side...  It cost me $2000 to make it..
If I could have, I would have bought the oriignal dough roller from Tom...   but at the time I never thought he would go out of business.
I have no idea if he or doug still own anything of the shotgun sams stuff..

I still have two shelfs of 'ss' stuff.. and some of it is pricey.. a lot of it will never be sold ...not even to tom/doug..   and I will never loan it to anyone but them.

My problem on what places make pizza thats definatley worth a mention, is I dont remember the names..
I rarely get pizza at a non-pizza place anymore...

It took me nearly 7 years to get what I had to something approximating SS pizza..  and it wasnt till I got the equipment made that I got close enough.

PLus nowadays Im a diabetic..so i dont really want to even try to redo it again. 

Sorry but despite my comments .. I wont give out anytnhing but method.. as its not mine to give out...   I consider the SS recipe to  be a owned product by doug/tom.

They would not have given the new guy a recipe without getting paid or getting a piece of the biz.  That would be crazy.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2014, 08:21:04 AM »

MY problem in sharing recipe... is mine is specifically a cut down version of Toms recipe.. I will not post it ...  In my view, its a recipe worth a fortune.

If I were the original owners and this new guy somehow got it.. I woud have sued him.


Tulsakid,

Why would you come to a site that is all about sharing recipes and ideas.....tease with indicating you have a great SS recipe, but say that you will not post it?
Also, you sort of sound like you don't know what you are talking about.

Bob
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2014, 12:04:29 PM »
MY problem in sharing recipe... is mine is specifically a cut down version of Toms recipe.. I will not post it ...  In my view, its a recipe worth a fortune.

It's not. There are a thousand recipes on these boards that are worth at least as much as this one. And this pizza has probably been reproduced by someone on these boards. If it hasn't, I'm pretty sure I could do it, if I only had a clue what the pizza was like.

If I were the original owners and this new guy somehow got it.. I woud have sued him.

It doesn't work that way. You'd be wasting your time.

Offline nick57

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2014, 01:51:23 PM »
The sauce recipe may be worth something, but not a cracker crust recipe. There are quite a few cracker crust recipes to be found here. I'm sure most are as good as SS's and most likely even better. The forum members are a great bunch of guys and ladies. Some own pizza joints, and others like myself are hobbyists. One thing they have in common, sharing their knowledge and time to help people who want to learn the fine art of pie making.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2014, 02:23:49 PM »
Tulsakid,

Why would you come to a site that is all about sharing recipes and ideas.....tease with indicating you have a great SS recipe, but say that you will not post it?
Also, you sort of sound like you don't know what you are talking about.

Bob

Anybody who knows about pizza, would know that there is no secret in a recipe. It's all about skill and workflow. I mean what's the big secret? instead of using a 60% hydration, we use 61%!!!


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2014, 07:22:59 PM »
Might as well stick a fork in this thread...
He was a drive by shooter man.  8)

Good posts guys!  :pizza:
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2014, 09:55:13 PM »
Fork you.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2014, 10:08:52 PM »
Me?   ???
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2014, 11:08:16 PM »
Oops. I mean...

Fork you. >:D

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2014, 11:32:42 PM »
Oops. I mean...

Fork you. >:D
Dats more like it.  8)
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Offline nick57

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2014, 07:45:36 PM »
  Well the place has been closed for over two weeks. They have a sign that says closed due to illness, will reopen soon. Sounds a little iffy to me. If the owner is sick, then the manager could take up the slack, or vice versa. Maybe he did not trust anyone and he was the only one that could run the place, and that is no way to run a restaurant. I think with his lack of business, I don't see how he could survive two weeks being closed. Of course being busted twice by the health dept, and a friend of mine getting sick after eating there, does not help the public's perception of the place. I'll check back in a couple of weeks to see if it reopens.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2014, 12:27:50 AM »
  Well the place has been closed for over two weeks. They have a sign that says closed due to illness, will reopen soon. Sounds a little iffy to me. If the owner is sick, then the manager could take up the slack, or vice versa. Maybe he did not trust anyone and he was the only one that could run the place, and that is no way to run a restaurant. I think with his lack of business, I don't see how he could survive two weeks being closed. Of course being busted twice by the health dept, and a friend of mine getting sick after eating there, does not help the public's perception of the place. I'll check back in a couple of weeks to see if it reopens.
You are waaay to hopeful/nice Nick.
That guy blew his foot off with Sam`s shotgun.....no way he`ll be back....he trying to get someone else to buy the saddle.   ;)
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Offline nick57

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2014, 09:22:29 AM »
You are most likely right Bob. He blew the chance to have a successful venture. It was a beloved pizza parlor in it's day. I think the brand name is ruined and I don't think he will have any takers for the business. I'm sure everything will be put up for auction. If I had the room, I might see if I could get his oven. It would be fun making pizzas in a real pizza oven. Not sure if I could afford to operate it though. 

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2014, 12:23:23 PM »
You might as well go ahead an pick up his sheeter too Nick....that oven wouldn`t cost you much to run a few times a month.  :chef:

Go over there and make an offer on that stuff man!   :drool:
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Offline nick57

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Re: Shotgun Sam's Pizza Palace is re-opening in Tulsa
« Reply #59 on: Yesterday at 09:15:29 AM »
  Bob's right, time to put a fork in this thread. Shotgun Sam's is no longer. Too bad, the guy should have researched how to run a successful pizza parlor. He had a waiting audience, but blew it in all aspects of operation.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/scene/restaurants/table-talk-shotgun-sam-s-pizza-palace-closes/article_100991cf-66d7-5ac5-b43f-9e56e2f2ab01.html