Author Topic: Politon's NY Pie  (Read 2502 times)

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Online scott123

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2012, 01:48:56 PM »
Paul, I'm glad that you're happy with your results, but this oven setup really isn't working. The top to bottom heat ratio is way off.

A screen (or maybe even two, stacked) would help, or possibly moving the stone to a higher shelf, but I think you're going to want to take a different direction completely.

Is this oven electric?  What's the peak temp on the dial? You really need more top heat- a lot more top heat. Cranking the overall oven temp is just heating the stone even hotter and burning the bottom in a faster amount of time. For that Emile Henry stone, you don't want to go above 650 (for NY style).

You need to incorporate the broiler. I'm guessing that the broiler won't turn on during the cleaning cycle, right? If this is the case, then I think you need to nix the cleaning cyle and work at the oven's peak temp. Hopefully it's 550- if it is, you can get a more conductive stone, utilize the broiler and have perfect 3-4 NY style bakes with the top and the bottom getting the right proportion of heat.

Edit: I scrutinized the photos one more time and think I see gas vents. Does this oven have a broiler in the main compartment? If it does, then my same advice applies- more conductive stone, peak temp (hopefully 550) in conjunction with the broiler.  If the main compartment has no broiler, then here's my recommendation:
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 02:24:39 PM by scott123 »

Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2012, 01:28:28 PM »
Paul, I'm glad that you're happy with your results, but this oven setup really isn't working. The top to bottom heat ratio is way off.

A screen (or maybe even two, stacked) would help, or possibly moving the stone to a higher shelf, but I think you're going to want to take a different direction completely.

Is this oven electric?  What's the peak temp on the dial? You really need more top heat- a lot more top heat. Cranking the overall oven temp is just heating the stone even hotter and burning the bottom in a faster amount of time. For that Emile Henry stone, you don't want to go above 650 (for NY style).

You need to incorporate the broiler. I'm guessing that the broiler won't turn on during the cleaning cycle, right? If this is the case, then I think you need to nix the cleaning cyle and work at the oven's peak temp. Hopefully it's 550- if it is, you can get a more conductive stone, utilize the broiler and have perfect 3-4 NY style bakes with the top and the bottom getting the right proportion of heat.

Edit: I scrutinized the photos one more time and think I see gas vents. Does this oven have a broiler in the main compartment? If it does, then my same advice applies- more conductive stone, peak temp (hopefully 550) in conjunction with the broiler.  If the main compartment has no broiler, then here's my recommendation:

Hi Scott,

It's a 550F gas range with heat vents in the bottom and a broiler on the top (same compartment.)

Yes, I agree, the heat distribution was completely off on that last bake. As an experiment, I put the stone on the bottom rack and covered the rack above the stone with aluminum foil. When the oven thermostat hit 540F, the stone was 700F.

On a normal bake with the oven set to 550F, the stone will peak out at ~532F, even after a 2 hour pre-heat as was the case last night. This pie was the second ball of that batch, 48-hour cold ferment. We let it bake for 3 minutes and then ran the broiler for 90 seconds. It didn't appear that the broiler was doing much as compared to the cleaning cycle, when it literally shoots flames.

Made a batch of bromated dough for the first time last night.Going to try and bake a pie on the cleaning cycle for lunch.

Will have to check out quarry tiles and a pizza screen for sure. Thanks for the tips!


Online scott123

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2012, 03:26:42 PM »
Yes, I agree, the heat distribution was completely off on that last bake. As an experiment, I put the stone on the bottom rack and covered the rack above the stone with aluminum foil. When the oven thermostat hit 540F, the stone was 700F.

Yes, this is the advantage of the quarry tile setup I pictured.  Because you've isolated the bottom compartment/blocked a lot of heat from reaching the thermostat, the stone (and quarry tile ceiling) can hit temps as high as 700 before the thermostat hits 550 and cycles the oven off. With a quarry tile ceiling at ~650 and a quarry tile hearth 3" below it at that same temp, along with a bottom baking burner on (every little bit helps), one can achieve fast and even bakes.

This all being said, as I mentioned before, the quarry tiles are geared more for a broilerless setup. With a broiler in the main compartment you have a few more options.

It didn't appear that the broiler was doing much as compared to the cleaning cycle, when it literally shoots flames.

Are you absolutely certain that, during the cleaning cycle, the broiler is on full blast? If this is the case, then you should be able to move the stone to the top shelf, use the cleaning cycle to pre-heat the stone to 650-700 and then leave the cleaning cycle on during the bake so the broiler is on full force. If the top cooks too quickly, just move the stone to the second shelf from the top.

I'm curious, can you run the cleaning cycle, achieve a 750ish stone, turn the oven off for a bit, and, when the temp drops to 700, run the cleaning cycle again for the bake? Can you suspend the cleaning cycle in this fashion? I bring this up because it might give you a more evenly heated stone.

Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 12:14:05 PM »
Hi Scott, very perceptive...pictures attached.

We came to the same conclusions. Sure enough, on the top shelf it burnt the top of the pie. The undercarriage was still pale.  :-D

I'm curious, can you run the cleaning cycle, achieve a 750ish stone, turn the oven off for a bit, and, when the temp drops to 700, run the cleaning cycle again for the bake? Can you suspend the cleaning cycle in this fashion? I bring this up because it might give you a more evenly heated stone.

The oven isn't modified in any way. It takes ~5 minutes of cool down with the oven door open to switch from the cleaning cycle back to bake. In one test, the stone was 756F after 42 minutes on the cleaning cycle. After a 5 minute cool down, the stone was 599F and the oven cooled to 345F.

We moved the stone to the second shelf from the top, performed the cool down, switched to the cleaning cycle, allowed to it to preheat and then left the door open until the stone cooled to ~655F and then launched the pie. This resulted in a 80 second bake!  :)


Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 12:19:46 PM »
Crumb shot of the 80 second bake...

Online scott123

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 01:02:44 AM »
Paul, a few observations

Topping Positioning/Quantity

First of all, it looks like you're getting sauce on the rim and it's effecting crust browning.  When you form the skin, you want to sauce to about 3/4" away from the edge and you want to sprinkle cheese another 1/2" in from that. If the sauce is migrating during the bake, you'll want to use a thicker sauce and/or possibly less sauce.

A big part of what defines NY style is the general lack of toppings.  If you like a lot of toppings, then I think you'd be better off going with American style, which is much more topping friendly.  If you like pepperoni and want it in every bite, I recommend going with a much thinner slice- that way you can cover the whole pie but not go overboard with the overall topping weight.

It's hard to tell, but I think you might be using a bit too much cheese as well.  Are you measuring the cheese?  If you are, how much are using and what's the diameter?

Dough

I think I recall seeing you mention frozen dough balls in another thread.  Have these been frozen dough balls?  If they are, I highly suggest making the dough yourself.  The fluctuating temperatures you're baking at have impacted consistency, but I think the frozen dough has messed with your consistency as well.  Frozen dough can fluctuate massively in levels of fermentation/residual sugar.  If there's low residual sugar, you might see insufficient browning as compared to previous bakes, and if there's a spike in sugar, you might see abnormally quick burning. If you're making the dough yourself and controlling the variables, you can produce a product that browns the same way every time.

Pre-heat Consistency/Cool Downs

It seems like your temps (and results) have been a bit inconsistent.  I think, rather than focusing too much on the IR thermometer readings, you might want to zero in on time. Rather than trying to hit a target temp, I'd use time for measuring your pre-heat instead.  For instance, I think a 40 minute cleaning cycle and a 20 minute cool down might give you good results.  Also, it's absolutely critical that you cool the stone down with the door closed, not open, or the front of the stone will be substantially cooler than the rear and you'll get uneven bakes.

Clean cycle 40 minutes, 20 minute cool down (door closed), then take the temp of the stone. If it's a lot higher than 625, then close the door and give it 10 more minutes (and going with a shorter cleaning cycle on the next occasion).  There's going to be a clean cycle/cool down time that will give you a perfect first pizza, it's just a matter of dialing it in, making small changes and opening the door as few times as possible.  Now... for the second pizza, that might get a bit tricky, but you shouldn't have to re-feed it with that much heat- maybe 5 minutes of cleaning cycle and 5 minutes of cool down.

Broiler

The top shelf + broiler was definitely too intense.  That's actually kind of encouraging, since most gas broilers are typically a bit weak.  You definitely still want to use the broiler, but you should put the stone on the second shelf down and use the broiler for part of the bake- maybe going with an approach similar to mine- 3  minutes without the the broiler and 1 minute with. The nice thing about the closed door cool down is that the top of the oven will be evenly heated as well, giving you much more even top baking.


For NY style, I would shoot for 4 minutes, top and bottom.  That could be, with the right amount of toppings, a 625 stone temp, or it might even be as low as 600.  This stone isn't all that thick, but perhaps it's a bit more conductive than your typical cordierite.

Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2012, 07:35:14 PM »
Paul, a few observations

Topping Positioning/Quantity

First of all, it looks like you're getting sauce on the rim and it's effecting crust browning.  When you form the skin, you want to sauce to about 3/4" away from the edge and you want to sprinkle cheese another 1/2" in from that. If the sauce is migrating during the bake, you'll want to use a thicker sauce and/or possibly less sauce.

A big part of what defines NY style is the general lack of toppings.  If you like a lot of toppings, then I think you'd be better off going with American style, which is much more topping friendly.  If you like pepperoni and want it in every bite, I recommend going with a much thinner slice- that way you can cover the whole pie but not go overboard with the overall topping weight.

It's hard to tell, but I think you might be using a bit too much cheese as well.  Are you measuring the cheese?  If you are, how much are using and what's the diameter?


Hi Scott, thank you for the thorough reply and thoughtful suggestions.

Typically we bake a 12-14" pie, 14 is the largest the stone can accommodate. What would be the recommended volume of cheese for a 14" pie? We don't currently have a digital scale.

We always go very light on the veggies and press them dry with paper towels after sauteing to remove excess moisture.

In terms of sauce, we recently began using a 3oz. spoodle.

The sauce on the rim was actually at my urging. It happened by mistake once and I noticed that we still got great oven spring. I liked the partial red coloration on the rim after it had risen. Just an experiment like so many.

Dough

I think I recall seeing you mention frozen dough balls in another thread.  Have these been frozen dough balls?  If they are, I highly suggest making the dough yourself.  The fluctuating temperatures you're baking at have impacted consistency, but I think the frozen dough has messed with your consistency as well.  Frozen dough can fluctuate massively in levels of fermentation/residual sugar.  If there's low residual sugar, you might see insufficient browning as compared to previous bakes, and if there's a spike in sugar, you might see abnormally quick burning. If you're making the dough yourself and controlling the variables, you can produce a product that browns the same way every time.


In a couple of cases, we put our second dough ball in the freezer to slow the fermentation process prior to being chilled overnight in the refrigerator and forgot to take it out.  ;D

It became a little disheartening to make dough only to incinerate it in a matter of seconds, so we began experimenting with store bought balls.

To your point, we quickly discovered that it only furthered the inconsistency that experimenting with the cleaning cycle had interjected.

Pre-heat Consistency/Cool Downs

It seems like your temps (and results) have been a bit inconsistent.  I think, rather than focusing too much on the IR thermometer readings, you might want to zero in on time. Rather than trying to hit a target temp, I'd use time for measuring your pre-heat instead.  For instance, I think a 40 minute cleaning cycle and a 20 minute cool down might give you good results.  Also, it's absolutely critical that you cool the stone down with the door closed, not open, or the front of the stone will be substantially cooler than the rear and you'll get uneven bakes.

Clean cycle 40 minutes, 20 minute cool down (door closed), then take the temp of the stone. If it's a lot higher than 625, then close the door and give it 10 more minutes (and going with a shorter cleaning cycle on the next occasion).  There's going to be a clean cycle/cool down time that will give you a perfect first pizza, it's just a matter of dialing it in, making small changes and opening the door as few times as possible.  Now... for the second pizza, that might get a bit tricky, but you shouldn't have to re-feed it with that much heat- maybe 5 minutes of cleaning cycle and 5 minutes of cool down.


Because the oven isn't modified, I'm afraid that if we were to leave the door closed, we would run the risk of the lock disengaging with the door shut and jamming. I don't want to end up like this guy:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8583.msg74267.html#msg74267

Not to mention, I just got laid-off and now need to sell my place with a functional oven.  :o

I purchased a pizza screen and have had difficulty removing the pies (without sticking) from the screen prior to ~3 minutes of bake time, even when the screen was coated with oil. I've also had difficulty browning the undercarriage when using the screen. In one test, I got the stone really hot by placing it on the bottom shelf, cooking the top of the pie under the broiler for the first 2 minutes with the screen directly on the top oven shelf and then moving the screen to the stone for the last 3 minutes or so. Unfortunately, I didn't have confidence at the time that the undercarriage wasn't pale and proceeded to put the pie directly on the stone for another minute or so in effect double baking the undercarriage. There was evidence that a diamond/screen char print had developed prior to the pie being placed directly on the stone.

Broiler

The top shelf + broiler was definitely too intense.  That's actually kind of encouraging, since most gas broilers are typically a bit weak.  You definitely still want to use the broiler, but you should put the stone on the second shelf down and use the broiler for part of the bake- maybe going with an approach similar to mine- 3  minutes without the the broiler and 1 minute with. The nice thing about the closed door cool down is that the top of the oven will be evenly heated as well, giving you much more even top baking.


For NY style, I would shoot for 4 minutes, top and bottom.  That could be, with the right amount of toppings, a 625 stone temp, or it might even be as low as 600.  This stone isn't all that thick, but perhaps it's a bit more conductive than your typical cordierite.


I have a dough ball that was bulk risen in the fridge for 72 hours. I just balled it and plan to bake it tonight for dinner.

I'll shoot for 4 minutes using the pizza screen. Hopefully 1 minute under the broiler on the top shelf and then 3 minutes on the stone (bottom shelf) will do the trick.

Gratzi,

--Paul

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2012, 09:53:41 AM »
Hi Paul:

could you explain a little more about your method of triggering the CC without shutting the door? After checking out that link, I'm nervous about trying it.

thanks
Brian
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2012, 11:53:58 AM »
Hi Paul:

could you explain a little more about your method of triggering the CC without shutting the door? After checking out that link, I'm nervous about trying it.

thanks
Brian


Hi Brian,

We have to start the cleaning cycle with the door open in order to allow the electric lock to engage first.

We open the door, depress the door interlock switch (so that the oven believes the door is closed) and start the cleaning cycle. Once the electric lock has engaged itself and the cleaning cycle begins, we close the door.

At the end of the bake, we cancel the cleaning cycle and leave the door open until the oven cools sufficiently such that we can depress the door interlock switch again and the electric lock will disengage. Once the lock returns to its original position, we close the door.

--Paul

Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2012, 12:08:05 PM »
I have a dough ball that was bulk risen in the fridge for 72 hours. I just balled it and plan to bake it tonight for dinner.

I'll shoot for 4 minutes using the pizza screen. Hopefully 1 minute under the broiler on the top shelf and then 3 minutes on the stone (bottom shelf) will do the trick.

Gratzi,

--Paul

Here are the pics. In both cases, the stone was ~780F after an hour and 15 minute pre-heat on the cleaning cycle at which point we put the screen on the top shelf directly under the broiler for 1 minute. Then moved the screen to the stone on the bottom shelf for the remainder of the bake. Each pie was 14". The first pie baked for 3 minutes on the stone, the second pie baked for 2 minutes and 30 seconds.


Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2012, 12:11:32 PM »
I forgot to mention, in each case, when the pies were moved from the broiler to the stone, the stone was ~730F.

Second pie...

--Paul

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2012, 08:52:16 PM »
Im loving it!

 8)
-Bill

Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2012, 10:04:07 AM »
Thanks Bill!  :pizza:

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2012, 07:26:25 PM »
Magnificent pie from start to finish, great job.  :chef:
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Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2012, 07:33:34 PM »
Magnificent pie from start to finish, great job.  :chef:

Thank you Jimmy!

Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2012, 01:40:57 AM »
I don't normally recommend these, but if you're going to bake in the high 700s, then I recommend either a screen or a less conductive stone to delay bottom baking.

Broiler

The top shelf + broiler was definitely too intense.  That's actually kind of encouraging, since most gas broilers are typically a bit weak.  You definitely still want to use the broiler, but you should put the stone on the second shelf down and use the broiler for part of the bake- maybe going with an approach similar to mine- 3  minutes without the the broiler and 1 minute with. The nice thing about the closed door cool down is that the top of the oven will be evenly heated as well, giving you much more even top baking.


For NY style, I would shoot for 4 minutes, top and bottom.  That could be, with the right amount of toppings, a 625 stone temp, or it might even be as low as 600.  This stone isn't all that thick, but perhaps it's a bit more conductive than your typical cordierite.

Scott,

On both accounts, your predictive analysis was spot on. A combination of a screen and a ~4 minute bake equals perfection.

Tonight's dinner...  :pizza:

344g ball, 14" pie
The screen was put under the broiler on the top shelve for 30 seconds (upon entry the stone was 782F)
The screen was moved to the stone on the bottom shelve and baked for 3 minutes (stone@737F)
Pizza rotated halfway.
When removed, the stone temp was 666F.

Very thin, nice oven spring, moist crumb, slightly crispy and slightly chewy....yum!

Gratzi,

--Paul

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2012, 01:07:49 PM »
Wonderful job.Im eating a slice of pizza for lunch and enjoying the photos at the same time!
 8)
-Bill

Offline politon

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Re: Politon's NY Pie
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2012, 01:57:36 PM »
Wonderful job.Im eating a slice of pizza for lunch and enjoying the photos at the same time!
 8)

Thanks Bill!

I developed a Neo-NY formulation using a natural leaven that I plan to bake for lunch.

Gratzi,

--Paul