Hard Dough

[Seba8]

Hi Guys,

I'm using 50% of Dallagiovanna pizza flour and 50% of 5 stagioni pizza napolitana flour with a 64% of hydratation, 0,06% of IDY and 1,4% of salt with a cold fermentation of 2 days. I really love my pizza but the problem is that an hour after bake the dough gets very hard. I hope you can help me.

Thanks

Sebastián

[TXCraig1]

One of the few things I liked about 5 Stagioni Napoletana is that my pies were still very soft after they cooled. I believe one of the keys is that I hardly worked the flour at all. I brought it together in the mixer until it was basically mixed, let it rest 20 or 30 minutes, gave it a couple kneads, let it rest another 20-30 minutes, a few more kneads, and that's it. High heat and very fast bakes (<55 seconds) also help.

[Seba8]

Thanks, I mix it in the machine for 14 minutes after i put all the flour.

[TXCraig1]

I'm not familiar with Dallagiovanna pizza flour, but you might try mixing less. My total mixing/kneading time with Caputo is probably 7 minutes or so. It was probably 3 minutes with 5 Stagioni.

[mkevenson]

While at Pizza Expo, I watched two General Mills dough making demos. The chef kneaded the dough at 2min intervals, pausing each 2 min to show us what the dough was doing at that time. The demo chef used what I would describe as a tear test. This was the 1st time I was able to feel the dough and see it during the process. My dough has improved greatly , my knead time had previously been too short, I believe. This current topic I believe has proven to be centered so far on knead time. So what test, if any, do the experts use to determine the proper knead time?


Mark

[chaspie]

Mark, is the longer kneading for a dough that you're going to use right away?  Or are you cold fermenting for a couple of days before using the dough?

I've been kneading my dough for less time, and my dough has improved as a result.  I cold ferment my dough at least two days before using it.  My understanding and experience tells me that time is a good substitute for kneading.

My process for NY style dough using Gold Medal Better for Bread flour is to hand mix the flour and water to a shaggy mass and autolyze for 20 to 30 minutes.  Then mix on lowest speed while adding the yeast, and once that is mixed in, the salt and sugar.  The slow speed mixing takes about 90 to 120 seconds.  Then I mix on the medium speed (my mixer only has three speeds, and medium is pretty fast) for about two to three minutes.  Then I scrape it out of the bowl onto the bench and do three stretch & folds at 5 minute intervals.  Then I divide, ball, and put the dough into small oiled covered plastic containers in the fridge and allow them to cold ferment a minimum of two days and up to five days before using them.

BTW, I'm no authority on dough handling.  If anyone sees any problem with my process, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

[mkevenson]

Mark, is the longer kneading for a dough that you're going to use right away?  Or are you cold fermenting for a couple of days before using the dough?

Chaspie, the shortest time I let my dough ferment is 24 hrs, that is in a controlled box at a temp between 59-64 F.
I also do a cold ferment, in the fridge, for usually 48 hrs. I have been increasing the knead time for both. Previously my dough was kinda soft, "unmanageable" in that I had a hard time picking up the dough when it came time to open it. I believe that the gluten was UNDER DEVELOPED. Now with longer knead time the gluten is developed more and the dough in quite manageable on opening. I have discovered however that perhaps the knead time needs to be tailored to the flour type ie soft (Caputo) or hard (KABF or higher protein).

Mark

[chaspie]

It makes sense that the type of flour used could make a difference.  I guess we all have to experiment to find out what processes work best for our particular ingredients, pizza style, and personal preferences.  It's what makes the pursuit of perfect pizza so much fun!

[mkevenson]