Kneading Issues - Kitchenaide w/ Dough Hook

[coffee_cup]

Hello,
I am pretty new to making my own dough.  Tonight I made dough for 4 14" pies.  I am doing a 3 day rise in the refrigerator to use for Saturday night.  I dissolved the salt in the warm water first. I then added flour and yeast and mixed on low for 2 minutes until it all came together.  I then added the olive oil and mixed on medium.  I used the dough hook the entire time.  Here is the problem - most of the time my dough hook will not actually knead dough.  It just spins it around in a circle because it's all stuck to the hook.  I don't want to add flour to throw off my recipe but that's usually why I have to do to get it to knead.  Tonight I let it spin for about 6 minutes, while moving the dough clump around trying to get it in the "knead position" instead of spinning around...I ended up kneading by hand.

Here is my recipe:

Flour (100%):    1078.35 g  |  38.04 oz | 2.38 lbs
Water (62%):    668.58 g  |  23.58 oz | 1.47 lbs
IDY (.22%):    2.37 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Salt (1.80%):    19.41 g | 0.68 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
Oil (1.1%):    11.86 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.64 tsp | 0.88 tbsp
Total (165.12%):   1780.57 g | 62.81 oz | 3.93 lbs | TF = 0.102
Single Ball:   445.14 g | 15.7 oz | 0.98 lbs

ALL ingredients were weighed in grams to the nearest tenth.
I am using Gold Medal better for bread.  Could this be the problem?

Thanks!

[Jackie Tran]

CC, the GM BFB flour is fine and certain not the problem.  I am currently using an antique KA K45 Mixer to make my NY dough.  Your recipe looks sound.  Your complaint about the KA not mixing well is a fairly common complaint but I can make 2 suggestions which might help. 

-You might consider upping your hydration by 1-2% points for a slightly wetter dough or you can increase your oil to 2%.  I would probably be more inclined to keep your hydration still and up your oil by 1% to a total of 2% and see if that helps. 

-Also when my dough just seems to spin around and not mix there are 3 tricks that I use that can alleviate that.
1) increase the speed momentarily to 3 or 4 to see if it will catch.  Once it catches, you can lower it back down to speed 1 or 2.  I use speed 1 for the entire mix.
2) stop the machine, lift the head and place the dough ball dead center.  Now lower the C - hook right onto the doughball burying it into the dough.  Start the machine again.
3) perhaps the most important trick.  When the dough is mixing, if it starts to climb at all, I will lift the head just a little as it is mixing to get gravity to coax the doughball back down.  Occassionally, I even had the head lifted almost 100% up and let the dough ball brush the side of the bowl as it spins on the hook.  I give it about 10 seconds or so and it usually is enough to work itself off the hook.  As the dough is mixing, I have my hand on the mixer head and if you were watching me, my hand looks like it is bobbing up and down almost constantly.  If not then my hand is resting on top of the mixer head.  I almost get into a rhythm with the machine.   Hard to describe, but I find that if I do this technique, it's not often that I have to stop the machine to adjust the doughball.

Now if the dough is pretty well mixed already and begins to ball up and stay off the hook, that maybe a good indication that your have sufficiently mixed the dough and no more mixing is required. 

But it sounds like the mix problem is occuring at the beginning when you are just trying to incorporate your ingredients.  If so, it may be that you should up your hydration by a few points, but I would try the oil first plus the 3 tricks I mentioned, then up the hydration if you are still having problems. 

Good luck,
Chau

[norma427]

coffee_cup,

Chau made some really great suggestions for helping you with your kneading issues with the dough climbing on your dough hook.

I have a Kitchen Aid Professional Pro and do have trouble sometimes with the dough wanting to climb the dough hook.  I have a lever that can drop or lift my bowl and all I do is drop the bowl and position the dough ball in a different place.  Sometimes I need to do that a few times, all depending on what formulation I am using.  Usually a higher hydration dough gives me the most problems when mixing in the Kitchen Aid.  I usually only ever mix on speed one.

Another way I have found to be able to incorporate the ingredients at the beginning is to use the flat beater first, then the dough hook to finish kneading the dough.

Norma

[coffee_cup]

Thanks for the great suggestions guys.  I will be sure to try them.  My mixer is just the classic, K45SSWH.

[Tman1]

I just got a Bosch mixer since my KA was doing this exact thing.

[Jackie Tran]

Just wanted to clarify a bit more.  If the dough is constantly climbing the hook, which is not what the OP indicated, it may mean that the hydration is too high.  If the dough is not mixing and just spinning, then it's possible the dough is a bit too dry.  There are other tricks to getting around the hydration issue besides changing it. 

Btw, I do recommend the classic KA mixers.  Got mine off of Craigslist for $60.  I haven't used my Bosch in 6months and will likely sell it soon.  These classic KA's made by Hobart are a great value especially for the beginner.

[slong115]

Been using my Kitchenaid mixer for about 5 years almost exclusively for making pizza dough.  I have the older style hook, not the newer spiral-shaped ones but one trick I use to keep the dough from climbing up the hook is to spray the hook with a bit of non-stick cooking spray before I start the kneading process.  If I am out of that, just a bit of oil on a napkin or paper towel rubbed on the hook seems to work quite well also.  I rarely have a problem with the dough climbing the hook after oiling it and even if it tries, just increasing the speed of the mixer for a few moments seems to throw the dough off the hook so I can continue with my mixing. 

[Tman1]

I have to admit I did spray the hook a few times, but didn't think that might be the whole solution.

[The Dough Doctor]

I think the newer reverse spiral dough hook is the real solution. We have had the same problems with the dough climbing up on the hook with all of our Hobart mixers from the K5-A to the M-802. The problem is due to hook design not the mixer design. We have replaced all of the straight "dough arms" AKA "J" arm with the reverse spiral design hooks and the problem has ceased. I don't know if Hobart has a reverse spiral design dough arm for all of their smaller consumer mixers or not, but it would be worth an e-mail to find out. If not, the advice from Jackie Tran is spot on.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[peetzabone]

Just a nod to say thanks for this advice. I, too, was frustrated with the C-Hook climb-and-spin in my KA UltraPower. For a long time I thought it was just the way the kneading worked in a mixer since it *always* happened.   

For anyone else- I got good kneading action by turning the speed up to 2 (sometimes 3) and lifting the head of the mixer up by hand as it started to climb and let gravity do its thing (as someone else mentioned). Seems like a ridiculous waste of time but as I always finish kneading by hand (so I can feel how the dough is) it's still less work than a nothing-but-hand knead.

I'm curious to know if I used the paddle longer would that knead as well? Perhaps I'll try next time.

[norma427]

I'm curious to know if I used the paddle longer would that knead as well? Perhaps I'll try next time.

peetzabone,

I have decent results when mixing some formulations to use the flat beater first, then finish mixing with the dough hook.  Usually I let the flat beat mix until the dough is all on the flat beater, then take the dough off the flat beater, and finally mix with the dough hook.

Norma

[caltheide]

Somewhere I read, maybe on this site, to add only about 75 percent of the flour but ALL the water and knead with the dough hook for 8 minutes and then add the last 25 percent slowly over 2 minutes for a total of 10 minutes.  The dough is too loose so can't climb the hook and gets a good workout.

[eteich]

peetzabone,

I have decent results when mixing some formulations to use the flat beater first, then finish mixing with the dough hook.  Usually I let the flat beat mix until the dough is all on the flat beater, then take the dough off the flat beater, and finally mix with the dough hook.

Norma

I do this as well.

Somewhere I read, maybe on this site, to add only about 75 percent of the flour but ALL the water and knead with the dough hook for 8 minutes and then add the last 25 percent slowly over 2 minutes for a total of 10 minutes.  The dough is too loose so can't climb the hook and gets a good workout.

I like to do something similar; however, I add 60% flour, mix it into a batter and let it rest for 20.  Then I'll add the rest of the flower over another 6 minute mix.

[TomN]

I used to knead the dough by hand until I took the advice of a friend, and tried my Kitchen Aid with the HOOK.  I still mix my dough into a ball by hand, but then I use the Kitchen Aid HOOK for ten minutes on low.

Also, I really recommend that you use a High Gluten Flour like Pendleton POWER flour. It makes a world of difference and you dough will bake more evenly.

here is the link to how I make my dough. You don't have to use beer, however, I like what it does for the flavor and texture of the dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17415.480.html

Scroll down the page till you get to the dough recipe.

Best to You,
TomN

[Pete-zza]

here is the link to how I make my dough. You don't have to use beer, however, I like what it does for the flavor and texture of the dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17415.480.html

Scroll down the page till you get to the dough recipe.

Tom,

I have a tip for you on linking to another post. If you click on the topic heading of a post that you want to link to, the URL for that post will appear in the address bar. You should then use your cursor to darken the URL in the address bar. To copy that URL into a post, enter Ctrl and C on your keyboard, and, at the point where you want to enter the URL in your post, enter Ctrl and V on your keyboard. When readers later click on that URL, it will take them directly to the post without having to do any scrolling to find the post.

You can also use your cursor and right click on the darkened target URL and use the Copy and Paste commands that way instead of the keyboard commands.

Peter

[dmcavanagh]

I always make my dough by using the paddle attachment first. I start with all the dry ingredients in the bowl, turn the KA on to speed 1 and then slowly add the water in a very slow, steady stream as the paddle turns. When the dough cleans the bowl I then let it rest for 20-30 minutes and then continue to mix for a short time with the dough hook.

[TomN]

Thanks Peter

[TomN]

dmcavanagh,

Just curious? Why do you let the dough rest for 20 minutes before using the hook? I have read comments that recommend not letting your dough set. Are you doing a cold rise for a 24 hour minimum or are you doing a warm rise for a few hours?

TomN

[kneader65]

  I haven't used my Bosch in 6months and will likely sell it soon.  These classic KA's made by Hobart are a great value especially for the beginner.

Chau,

Just curious why you prefer the KA over the Bosch.As someone who has used both and done extensive experiments, I value your opinion highly.

[chaspie]

Just curious? Why do you let the dough rest for 20 minutes before using the hook? I have read comments that recommend not letting your dough set. Are you doing a cold rise for a 24 hour minimum or are you doing a warm rise for a few hours?

Sorry, I know you weren't directing the question to me, so I hope you'll pardon me for jumping in with an explanation that I suspect is the same as the one that dmcavanagh would give you. 

After an initial brief mixing of the flour and water, before adding any salt or yeast, the rough dough is allowed to rest for 20 to 30 minutes before further mixing.  The waiting period is called autolyse.  It allows the flour to evenly absorb all the water, and enzyme activity to begin, which helps the starches and gluten to begin to develop.  This makes the dough stronger and more extensible.   

It is a very useful technique in bread baking.  I'm not sure how necessary it is for making pizza dough, but I've been doing it with my pizza dough too.  I hope someone can explain If there is a reason why it's not recommended for pizza dough.