Pizza, Passion and Pride

[andreguidon]

what was you water %? maybe you should lower the Hydration...

[Kermit]

what was you water %? maybe you should lower the Hydration...

Of the starter or the dough? Starter is about 100% and dough was about 58%.

[toddster63]

Kermit, I like Ischia with tiny amounts (like .5%) and a 24 hour RT rise. Light and airy. I never fiddle with re-balling. I've had bad experiences with a faster "second rise" and then over-fermented too extensible skins. I've also had Ischia give me the finger and not rise much at all. But then two days later, while making sourdough bread with Ischia, the loaf practically explodes out of the oven with massive rising—sheesh...!

[TXCraig1]

And will a 6 hour rise with an Ischia Starter dough be sufficient for it to be airy?

It all depends on the quantity of starter and the temp. With enough starter and a warm room, you could probably get a 6 hour rise out of Ischia. This is a complete guess, but I'd say something on the order of 17% for a 6 hour rise at 85F or so.

[andreguidon]

maybe the starter is a "little" to acid, this makes the gluten break down faster, and looks like the dough is over hidrated. make the same dough only with CY and see if the results are the same. what flour are you using?

[Kermit]

Kermit, I like Ischia with tiny amounts (like .5%) and a 24 hour RT rise. Light and airy. I never fiddle with re-balling. I've had bad experiences with a faster "second rise" and then over-fermented too extensible skins. I've also had Ischia give me the finger and not rise much at all. But then two days later, while making sourdough bread with Ischia, the loaf practically explodes out of the oven with massive rising—sheesh...!

Thanks. I'll give the 24 hour rise a try next time 

It all depends on the quantity of starter and the temp. With enough starter and a warm room, you could probably get a 6 hour rise out of Ischia. This is a complete guess, but I'd say something on the order of 17% for a 6 hour rise at 85F or so.

What I was asking, but didn't formulate clearly enough was, by using 1.3% starter, could I do a 48 hour rise where the first 36 hours are at about 60-65 F, and the last 12 is at around 75-80 F(first 6 hours like the first 36, and the last 6 in balls).   

maybe the starter is a "little" to acid, this makes the gluten break down faster, and looks like the dough is over hidrated. make the same dough only with CY and see if the results are the same. what flour are you using?

Will try making one with CY and one with starter when I get the chance. If the starter is too acid, is it just a matter of taking a small amount of the starter and refreshing it with water and flour, and then use it when it's frothing again? Basically using a "young" starter. I'm, using Caputo Flour.

[Redshirt]

Just as a side note, get to know your starter, the longer you have it alive it seems to stabilaize into an easier semi predictable culture.  Just kind of like when kids are hungry they put on a face or when they are happy they put on another.  I had an Ischia for two years that became wonderful, and i do not mean it became accustomed or absorbed by my surroundings blah...blah..... (that is a different subject I do not believe in)  I mean it just became so predictable in a way that I knew the temp I had it at and how it would react, it was great!  I ruined it, so I am starting a new one.  What I mean by all of this, is, do not forget that neapolitan pizza is artisinal.  I have a lot of questions myself, but I cannot ask without having experimented with the proper tools.  I will tell you that everybody on this site has helped, and the other part is what you/we put into it and it seems that you are doing the right thing.  My advice, try to stabilize as many things or steps as possible and continue.

[Kermit]

So I made a little experiment. 1.5% starter, 58% hydration, 2.5% salt, Caputo flour and another with yeast instead of the starter. Mixed for about 4-5 minutes on low speed. Doughs were set to ferment at about 60-65F for 36 hours. The yeast dough had more than doubled in size, whereas the starter had a slight rise.

Divided into balls and set to rise for 10 hours at about 70-75F. You could clearly see which one was the yeast one, as it had a lot more holes in it, but the starter was not that bad.

Doughs were a bit wet to the touch, but got out with a little work. The one starter ball I tightened up, and set to rise for another 3 hours. The balls more or less opened themselves, just like Craig has said about his own dough. Good results from both doughs.

The last doughball I made 3 hours later, and it was a tad hard to stretch. I think I might need to leave it for 6 hours after reballing it. This will let the gluten relax and make for an easy opening, but easier to get out of the box as it has not flattened out completely making it difficult to get the spatula under it.

[Kermit]

I tried Todds recipe with .5% Ischia starter. Caputo pizzeria flour, 58% hydration, 2% salt and .5% starter. 18 hours in bulk at RT, and 6 hours in balls at RT.

It was a great succes, when I got to try it out in the restaurants oven. Although it's not entirely geared for Neapolitan pizza, but it was ok. This was without a doubt THE BEST pizza I've made so far. Although it's not completely round, the taste was spot on. Just like Da Michele it was soft, and melted in my mouth.

[toddster63]

Looks really tasty, Kermit. Amazing how little yeast you can use for great taste, huh?

[Kermit]

Yes. It's very funny to experiment with

[TXCraig1]

Gorgeous pies. I really like the look of the Margherita. It just looks tender and delicious. I'm happy to see your success with the tiny amounts of natural yeast and long room temp ferment.

CL

[Kermit]

Gorgeous pies. I really like the look of the Margherita. It just looks tender and delicious. I'm happy to see your success with the tiny amounts of natural yeast and long room temp ferment.

CL

Thanks Craig. It's like a new world opening up 

[Kermit]

Not that much activity in here lately. I've been on a diet that has meant a minimum of pizza - I have still to figure out how to diet and still live off pizza  But in the meantime I have started up a small blog in danish, and trying to learn other danes the art of Pizza Napoletana. It's actually turning out quite good, and a lot of the information I get, I get from here and basically just translates it to danish. So cudos for a great board!!

I also post on a danish BBQ forum where there's a good focus on pizza as well. I have some good discussions with a baker on the site, as we don't always agree on everything related to pizzabaking. For instance the use of a windowpane test when making pizza dough. He wouldn't go without it, and I'm saying that it's not really something you need to do, as the gluten will develop it self. I refer a lot to Lehmann and what he has gained experience wise, but sometimes I find myself short of knowledge. I would really enjoy a conversation between the two.

One of the things we are discussing as of now is the whole salt/yeast debate. I've always been told to mix yeast, flour and water, and then add salt later on as the salt will inhibit the yeasts ability to ferment. According to him it's a myth, and there have been numerous studies to verify this. As of now I don't know if he's right, but he's basically saying that salt will only kill yeast if it's in direct contact with eachother, sounds pretty plausible.

What's ya'lls 2 cents on this matter? I might go ahead and make 3 doughs with the same amount of yeast in it. One without any salt, one with salt that has been dissolved in yeasty water to begin with, and one with salt that has been added after a short mix of flour, water and yeast.

[Pete-zza]

One of the things we are discussing as of now is the whole salt/yeast debate. I've always been told to mix yeast, flour and water, and then add salt later on as the salt will inhibit the yeasts ability to ferment. According to him it's a myth, and there have been numerous studies to verify this. As of now I don't know if he's right, but he's basically saying that salt will only kill yeast if it's in direct contact with each other, sounds pretty plausible.

What's ya'lls 2 cents on this matter?

Kermit,

What your baker friend says is essentially correct. While modern yeast strains are more salt tolerant than older strains, it is still not a good idea to combine the water, salt and yeast at the same time. If for some reason, this has to be done, you should perhaps increase the amount of yeast a bit and only keep the water, salt and yeast together for only a very brief time, and then quickly add the flour and other ingredients. The reason for not keeping the three ingredients together for other than a brief period is because salt is a hygroscopic ingredient (it takes on water from its surroundings) and, as such, it can leach fluids from the yeast cells by osmotic pressure and impair the performance of the yeast. The safer way to use salt is to first dissolve it in the water so that it can take up whatever water it needs, and then stir in the yeast. At that point, the salt should have minimal effect on the yeast and not impair its performance. An alternative to this approach is to add the salt to the flour and other dry ingredients. The flour will buffer the yeast from the salt so that the salt can't harm the yeast. Adding the salt later in the dough making process, or after an autolyse, is also acceptable although you will lose the antioxidant effects of the salt.

To gain a better understanding of the role of salt in dough, see the article at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html and also the article on salt at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8764.msg75936/topicseen.html#msg75936.

You might also want to take a look at the video on yeast at http://www.bakemag.com/videos/bakers%20workbench.aspx?channelId=2e44799d754f4af8b9d1cff360d55e36&channelListId=1d4318192fac42b5913b52186df753a4&mediaId=d02655a6df0f4720befc4106a553976c. There is also another video in the same series at http://www.bakemag.com/videos/bakers%20workbench.aspx?channelId=2e44799d754f4af8b9d1cff360d55e36&channelListId=1d4318192fac42b5913b52186df753a4&mediaId=9f52de26868a48f4b275ceaedaec87c7. You will note from the first video that salt above 1% of the flour weight has an inhibiting effect on the yeast. That doesn't mean the you shouldn't use more than 1% salt. It just means that you should be sure that the amount of yeast and salt are used at the proper levels to achieve the desired results.

Peter

 

[Kermit]

Peter, once again you amaze me with your knowledge of where to find the correct informations. Thank you! 

[Kermit]

Wow, it's been a month since my last post in here. I think I've made pizzas once since then, but the drought is over as of tomorrow. My birthday is the day after tomorrow, so I have invited my family tomorrow to eat pizza. 15 people and I guess I'll be making something like 18 pies. The biggest batch I've ever made, and it's going to be a lot of fun to see how I'll manage  Pics will of course be uploaded