Author Topic: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?  (Read 6393 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« on: April 09, 2012, 07:38:12 PM »
Any idea why the flour is doing this?  This is a 50/50 blend of AP and BF and it's only been in the fridge for 5 hrs.  It was mixed completely and these spots were absent before it went into the fridge.
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Offline Garvey

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 07:40:49 PM »
Are they air bubbles?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 07:47:06 PM »
Nate,

If I had to guess, I would say that it might be congealed oil (or fat) that was randomly and discretely dispersed throughout the dough, especially if you used a short knead time that prevented a more uniform dispersion.

Peter

Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 08:08:24 PM »
^^if that's the case, it might melt when you cook it and give you an awesome, flaky crust.  kind of like a laminated crust (or whatever it's called).  that would be cool!

Offline David Deas

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 10:51:20 PM »
Looks like mold, whatever it is.

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2012, 01:36:33 AM »
looks like chunks of butter
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2012, 07:54:53 AM »
Nate,

If I had to guess, I would say that it might be congealed oil (or fat) that was randomly and discretely dispersed throughout the dough, especially if you used a short knead time that prevented a more uniform dispersion.

Peter


I'd like to think so but I made the same batch using 100% AP and I have no white spots.  I had this also happen to me over the weekend using 100% BF but they went away as the doughball got back to room temp.
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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 08:07:24 AM »

I'd like to think so but I made the same batch using 100% AP and I have no white spots.  I had this also happen to me over the weekend using 100% BF but they went away as the doughball got back to room temp.

Nate,

You might take a small piece of the dough and either drop it in some hot water for about a minute or put it in the microwave for about 15 seconds to see if the spots go away. If the white spots are fat or congealed oil, I would think that they would disappear. If you use the microwave, you might find that there is a film on the piece of dough. You can taste it to see if it is oil or fat. There is very little in the way of natural fats in flour (about 1-2 grams for 100 grams of flour), so you won't get much from that source. It would have to be the oil or fat that you used in your dough.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 08:09:04 AM »
Can you tell us what your dough formulation/recipe was and how you made it? This might provide some insight into what the problem is.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Offline pythonic

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 08:25:25 AM »
Here's the recipe I used.

16oz flour (50% AP/50% BF)
6oz water
1/8oz yeast
2 tsp salt
4 oz corn oil
1 TBSP olive oil

Mixed all ingredients at same time until it started to come together then kneaded for 2 mins.  Put directly in fridge inside a plastic bowl w/lid.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 08:27:55 AM by pythonic »
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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 08:29:59 AM »
Nate,

Can you describe how you made the dough and then managed it? I assume that this is the relevant thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18610.0.html.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 08:39:51 AM »
Peter,

What other info do you need?  Water temp was roughly 70 degrees and all ingredients were added at the same time and were mixed for about 30 secs by hand until it came together and then kneaded for 2 minutes by hand and then put directly into the fridge.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 08:46:44 AM by pythonic »
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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 08:51:17 AM »
What other info do you need?  Water temp was roughly 70 degrees and all ingredients were added at the same time and were mixed for about 30 secs by hand until it came together and then kneaded for 2 minutes by hand and then put directly into the fridge.

Nate,

What you provided seems adequate. With the short mix/knead times that you used, which I know is the recommended approach for a Chicago deep-dish crust (to minimize gluten development and avoid a bread-like crust), pending a better diagnosis from Tom, I think I will stick with my prior diagnosis, at least until you do the simple test I suggested.

Peter


Offline pythonic

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 08:55:55 AM »
I did the microwave test and it appears to just be fat like u indicated.  Any reason why it's only showing up when I use bread flour though vs all purpose?
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 09:11:50 AM »
After doing a quick Internet search on this it may also be that the doughball is drying out and the flour is starting to show.  Would make since too with the bread flour because it absorbs differently?
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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 09:15:26 AM »
I did the microwave test and it appears to just be fat like u indicated.  Any reason why it's only showing up when I use bread flour though vs all purpose?

Nate,

Bread flour has a higher protein content than all-purpose flour and also a higher rated absorption value, so if you did not increase the amount of formula water, I suppose that it is possible that you needed a bit more mix/knead time for the bread flour than you used, resulting in a less uniform distribution of the oils in the dough made with the bread flour. Can you tell us what brands of all-purpose and bread flours you used? The answer might help explain the results you got.

Peter

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 09:20:09 AM »
After doing a quick Internet search on this it may also be that the doughball is drying out and the flour is starting to show.  Would make since too with the bread flour because it absorbs differently?

Nate,

Did you leave the dough exposed to the ambient air while in the refrigerator, or was the dough covered? With over 25% oil, I would think that the dough wouldn't dry out.

Peter


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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2012, 09:38:22 AM »
Nate,

Another thought that occurred to me is that maybe the oil prevented the flour from being properly and fully hydrated, resulting in little pockets of flour surrounded or trapped by oil. However, if such were the case, I would think that if you pinched the white spots you would see either raw flour or flour soaked or wetted by oil.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 09:47:12 AM »
Nate,

Bread flour has a higher protein content than all-purpose flour and also a higher rated absorption value, so if you did not increase the amount of formula water, I suppose that it is possible that you needed a bit more mix/knead time for the bread flour than you used, resulting in a less uniform distribution of the oils in the dough made with the bread flour. Can you tell us what brands of all-purpose and bread flours you used? The answer might help explain the results you got.

Peter


Ceresota all purpose and gold medal better for bread flour was used.

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Offline pythonic

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 09:48:22 AM »
Nate,

Did you leave the dough exposed to the ambient air while in the refrigerator, or was the dough covered? With over 25% oil, I would think that the dough wouldn't dry out.

Peter

Put lid on it immediately so no ambient air.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 10:02:47 AM »
Nate,

Another thought that occurred to me is that maybe the oil prevented the flour from being properly and fully hydrated, resulting in little pockets of flour surrounded or trapped by oil. However, if such were the case, I would think that if you pinched the white spots you would see either raw flour or flour soaked or wetted by oil.

Peter

I scraped at it with a butter knife but I didn't see any raw flour.  I think it's just soaked with oil.
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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 10:07:36 AM »
Ceresota all purpose and gold medal better for bread flour was used.

Nate,

As you can see from the Master gluten mass list at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg177835.html#msg177835, the Ceresota all-purpose flour has less gluten forming proteins than the Better for Bread flour, by enough to possibly affect the performance of the two flours in the mix/knead stage. Normally, one might avoid the type of problem you experienced by hydrating the flour before adding the oil, but that might result in too much gluten development and result in a bread-like dough rather than a biscuit-like dough. I think this is one of those cases where you try to emulate a pie crust dough than a bread dough.

Peter

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 10:32:02 AM »
Nate,

As you can see from the Master gluten mass list at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg177835.html#msg177835, the Ceresota all-purpose flour has less gluten forming proteins than the Better for Bread flour, by enough to possibly affect the performance of the two flours in the mix/knead stage. Normally, one might avoid the type of problem you experienced by hydrating the flour before adding the oil, but that might result in too much gluten development and result in a bread-like dough rather than a biscuit-like dough. I think this is one of those cases where you try to emulate a pie crust dough than a bread dough.

Peter


Peter,

I forgot to mention I used KAAP for my 1st attempt and not ceresota.  Im thinking it must be in correlation of the bread flour since I'm not getting these results using 100% all purpose.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 10:36:48 AM by pythonic »
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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 10:48:27 AM »
I forgot to mention I used KAAP for my 1st attempt and not ceresota.  Again it has to be in correlation of the bread flour since I'm not getting these results using 100% all purpose.

Nate,

Even though the KAAP is an all-purpose flour, it has a protein content and gluten content that approaches the protein content and gluten content of some bread flours, including the Better for Bread flour. The wheat grains used to mill the two flours are not the same but I wouldn't think that that would materially affect the outcome. I forgot that you used a 50/50 blend of flours but, even taking that into account, which would only slightly increase the required hydration for the blend, I think what you experienced was just a case of undermixing the dough. And that undermixing was appropriate in my opinion for a deep-dish dough. Sometime you might try using all all-purpose flour again to see if you end up with a spot-free dough again.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Weird white spots on my deep dish doughball?
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2012, 10:57:38 AM »
Nate,

Even though the KAAP is an all-purpose flour, it has a protein content and gluten content that approaches the protein content and gluten content of some bread flours, including the Better for Bread flour. The wheat grains used to mill the two flours are not the same but I wouldn't think that that would materially affect the outcome. I forgot that you used a 50/50 blend of flours but, even taking that into account, which would only slightly increase the required hydration for the blend, I think what you experienced was just a case of undermixing the dough. And that undermixing was appropriate in my opinion for a deep-dish dough. Sometime you might try using all all-purpose flour again to see if you end up with a spot-free dough again.

Peter


Peter,

I have an all purpose sitting on the counter as we speak and it's spot free.
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