Author Topic: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?  (Read 834 times)

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Offline Tbomb4000

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All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« on: April 04, 2016, 06:04:35 PM »
I was just listening to a Podcast called "Legends of Pizza Blog" do an interview with Tim Huff from General Mills.  He stated that "... generally with a high gluten flour at home you don't have the mixing ability to fully develop that gluten structure.  So like if, I use my Kitchen Aide at home I really can't fully develop  All Trump. "  But he doesn't explain why?  What does he mean?  Can I, as a home pizza maker, somehow over come this?

He then recommends "Better for Bread" mixed in a Cuisinart with dough blades instead.

Any insight would be great.  Just trying to make the best pizza I can at home.

Thanks guys

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2016, 07:54:57 PM »
Lmao.   He's basically saying he doesn't know anything about flour, dough, or pizza.  I can't believe ppl are still spreading this nonsense.  The reality is that high gluten flour, because of it's high protein content is the easiest of flours to develop gluten with.  So easy you don't even need a mixer.  Just mix it with water and let it sit a few minutes and you instantly have gluten development.  High gluten flour develops gluten easier than weaker protein flours.

Chau
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 08:01:58 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2016, 12:02:32 AM »
Well, Tim is partially correct, with most mixers available to home bakers you really cannot fully develop all of protein in All Trumps flour into "gluten", however, it can be developed very efficiently through biochemical gluten development, it just takes longer. When I was working at AIB we did literally hundreds of mixing series each year where we tried to mix the dough to the point where we could break down the gluten. A few interesting observations:
1) As you continue to mix some of those very strong flours the dough heats up to the point where the heat is breaking down the protein rather than the mixing energy input. If you can keep the dough cold during the long mixing time by injecting carbon dioxide into the dough it is not uncommon to see mixing times of over 30-minutes.
2) As you continue to develop the gluten you also begin to expose it to increasingly greater amounts of oxygen (in the air) which oxidizes the gluten as fast as it is breaking down (much like adding ascorbic acid, azodicarbonamide, or potassium bromate to the dough) this action in itself results in what used to be an unexplained extension of mixing time as the dough begins to break down. This concept was commercialized back in the early 70's by Continental Baking Company (Rye New York) in what they referred to as the "fatigue" dough method. By this dough mixing method the dough was mixed at high speed in an enclosed mixing chamber (horizontal mixer with a capacity of 2,500-pounds of dough). By keeping the mixer closed the carbon dioxide released from the dough created a somewhat anaerobic environment in the mixer which prevented oxidation of the gluten bonds during mixing thus enabling the development of an over mixed dough condition. The over mixed dough has a capacity to carry more water than other doughs so it was an economical advantage to use this mixing method. Since the over mixed dough was too soft and way too sticky to be processed in their bread making equipment they found that if they opened the mixer door (bowl) slightly the carbon dioxide would be expelled and replaced with air, with the mixer now tumbling the dough at low speed the gluten bonds were strengthened and the dough became firmer and less sticky so it could now be processed normally through their equipment. The Chorleywood bread making process employs this same principal but here they mix the dough under a vacuum to exclude air/oxygen from the mixing chamber. If you have ever mixed a dough in a VCM you know that it really isn't hard to over mix a dough with all of the earmarking characteristics (soft, sticky and weak dough with extensibility that just won't quit) we used to refer to it as "elephant snot"
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2016, 12:20:17 AM »
Tom, where is Tim not partially correct?  I don't understand the purpose of such a statement.  It's almost as if to say that home bakers shouldn't use (AT) HG flour.  I have always associated window paneing dough with full gluten development and I can easily do that using HG flour with mechanical mixing coupled with biochemical gluten development.  And once again HG flour actually achieves this easier than weaker flours.

If we technically aren't able to fully (100%) develop the gluten on high gluten dough using a mixer, what would be the functional end point of fully developing the gluten then?  I seem to be able to make great dough and products with an "underdeveloped" dough, what would be the point in fully developing the gluten and making such a statement?  In other words, why would I want to do that? And if we can't fully developed the gluten with HG flours, is this the same scenario with the other weaker flours?  I have never understood statements about HG flours being harder to develop gluten.  It seems backwards to me.

Also another thought.   What if I upped the hydration on a HG dough?  Does that not decrease friction and allow longer mixing times to fully develop the gluten without the dough temp getting too high?  What if we did this in a cold environment with refrigerated air?  Would that make a difference?

Chau
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 03:10:20 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2016, 01:25:11 AM »
Jackie;
You answered your question when you said "combined with biochemical gluten development) aka fermentation. High gluten/protein flour will almost always achieve a better and finer gluten film than most lower protein flours. When you increase the absorption of a dough it receives less mechanical mixing action from the dough hook so it indeed does not heat up as much or as fast due to bowl friction during mixing, BUT because of the diminished action of the hook in the dough it can easily take 30-minutes or quite frequently more to get the gluten to develop to a point where it forms a ball in the mixer, and when it does finally pull free from the bowl you will have a composite dough made of more developed gluten (from there the hook was in contact with the dough) and that which has been sitting on and clinging to the bottom of the bowl which has very minimal gluten development, at this point (we refer to this as "clean-up") the dough will begin to act in a more normal manner in the bowl and begin slapping the sides of the bowl, this is where the dough now begins to heat up again due to heat of friction generated during mixing so we are again back to square one. While air temperature (room temperature) has an impact upon the finished temperature (it is even included in the calculation for desired water temperature/ 3 X desired dough temperature minus room temperature, flour temperature and friction factor) it is not the main driving factor in achieving the desired finished dough temperature (air is pretty poor at such things) instead it is the flour temperature and the water temperature that have the greatest impact, and of those two, the water has the greatest impact upon dough temperature.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2016, 02:13:32 AM »
Tom, I have on several occasions taken a HG dough at 80% hydration and mixed it using only a Kitchen Aid on it's highest speed setting.   It typically takes me around 10-12minutes for the dough to pull free from the bottom and achieve a gooey glossy texture.  Is this not effectively full gluten development?  Also as far as I am aware of, the dough temp did not rise excessively to the point of being deleterious to the dough or gluten development. 

I can also achieve a similar level of gluten development and dough condition using a HG flour and hand mixing technique.   

Chau

« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 02:58:36 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2016, 12:13:09 PM »
Jackie;
What you have described is what is referred to as "clean-up". Sufficient gluten has been developed to provide the elasticity needed for the dough to pull off of the sides of the mixing bowl and begin to cling to the dough hook. Full gluten development is achieved just before the dough begins to let down a stage just before break down. We seldom mix doughs to full gluten development as at that stage of mixing the dough is usually too extensible to handle in any type of processing. The one type of product that is usually made from a highly hydrated dough with close to full gluten development is chibatta (sp?). These doughs are so soft that they essentially cross the line to becoming a batter.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2016, 02:30:43 PM »
All Trumps is better with less gluten development anyhow just like Essen used to say. You want it to look like cottage cheese when your done kneading it.  Best results in my oven.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Steve

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2016, 02:41:41 PM »
Jackie;
What you have described is what is referred to as "clean-up". Sufficient gluten has been developed to provide the elasticity needed for the dough to pull off of the sides of the mixing bowl and begin to cling to the dough hook. Full gluten development is achieved just before the dough begins to let down a stage just before break down. We seldom mix doughs to full gluten development as at that stage of mixing the dough is usually too extensible to handle in any type of processing. The one type of product that is usually made from a highly hydrated dough with close to full gluten development is chibatta (sp?). These doughs are so soft that they essentially cross the line to becoming a batter.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

So, would it be better to use your hands or a spoon to mix (not knead) the flour/water so it all comes together at the same time, then let it rest (autolyse) to fully hydrate, then put it in a mixer? That way the gluten develops uniformly throughout?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2016, 03:06:54 PM »
We seldom mix doughs to full gluten development as at that stage of mixing the dough is usually too extensible to handle in any type of processing. The one type of product that is usually made from a highly hydrated dough with close to full gluten development is chibatta (sp?). These doughs are so soft that they essentially cross the line to becoming a batter.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Right, and ciabatta dough can be made using a mixer (at home) in the same manner as described above.  Thanks for chiming in and for your expertise Tom.   I don't know the context the statements Mr. Huff made those in so there very well maybe a good reason, however those statements ought not to be made without further explanation.  Otherwise, it just creates confusion for lay people and home bakers.  The fact that HG flour can't technically be fully developed at home or in a lab (if this is even the case) is trivial and irrelevant to the homebaker.   On the contrary I find HG flour to be easier and more forgiving to work with than a weaker specialty flour like Caputo 00.  I really don't see the purpose in professionals making these types of assertions or claims.  ::) 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 04:14:00 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2016, 04:02:15 PM »
It's really kind of a non-issue in the first place as the number of home bakers who will ever see, let alone use, high gluten flour is pretty trivial I'm guessing.
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2016, 04:09:40 PM »
You have to understand where Tim Huff is coming from, while I don't know the full context of what he said, or who he was directing his statement to, what he said was, in essence, correct, but as you also pointed out it has little or no relevance to home pizza makers. It's a case where he was technically right but from a practical stand point....who cares since we, as home pizza makers or even pizzeria operators, never strive to mechanically achieve full gluten development anyways.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2016, 04:17:48 PM »
Out of curiosity, I will attempt to achieve full gluten development in a HG flour using a KA machine.  I assume that if I can get the dough to come together and then break down with vigorous mixing, that full gluten was developed prior to dough break down.  Is that a correct assumption Tom? 

I also plan to keep a bag of ice around the mixing bowl to regulate dough temperature.  Does this sound like a valid experiment?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 04:19:56 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2016, 04:34:17 PM »
How will you know if the gluten is fully developed before developed gluten starts to break down?
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2016, 04:42:11 PM »
I am assuming it does. I don't know if gluten development will reach 100% and also don't know if there is a way to test that.  If there isn't then Tim's statement is that much more irrelevant.

Full gluten development is achieved just before the dough begins to let down a stage just before break down. We seldom mix doughs to full gluten development as at that stage of mixing the dough is usually too extensible to handle in any type of processing. The one type of product that is usually made from a highly hydrated dough with close to full gluten development is chibatta (sp?). These doughs are so soft that they essentially cross the line to becoming a batter.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Tbomb4000

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2016, 07:54:24 PM »
Thank you both Dr. Dough and Jackie Tran for the info and discussion.  It is very helpful.  I know there maybe very few of us who use High Gluten flour at home, but for us few, I think we would like to know of if its worth it, which it sounds like it is. 

... High gluten/protein flour will almost always achieve a better and finer gluten film than most lower protein flours. ...
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

So am I safe to assume mixing my dough like this video below-starring the Dough Doctor of course- just on a smaller scale, 100% flour @ 785 grams.  is reasonably okay at home on KitchenAid.  Should I modify the mixing  times and speed,  knowing the smaller batch is oxidizing more my gluten because of greater surface area to mass ratio?  Or am I overthinking this?



Living in Madison, Wisconsin, which is a great town,  I am very far from the type of pizza I love and grew up on.  At least when I would visit family I could have Rodolfo's pizza, our family's favorite Pizzeria out in Skillman, NJ. Then they changed ownership and quality about three years ago. The fact I can never have that pizza again unless I figure out the recipe and make it myself has driven me a little crazy.  Making a great pizza is about the right ingredients and attention to detail at all steps.  The ingredients are simple, the actually art, takes sometime. 

Thanks again

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2016, 11:44:48 PM »
I think you are over thinking your dough mixing. Just put the water in the mixing bowl first, than add any salt / sugar, then the flour and the IDY, begin mixing at low speed just until you don't see any dry flour in the bowl, pour in the oil and mix for about 1-more minute in low speed, then increase the mixing speed if you can and mix the dough just until it begins to take on a smooth, satiny appearance....no need to mix it anymore than that. With but a few exceptions (commercial application and emergency doughs) pizza dough is best when under mixed, all you really need is a homogeneous dough but mixing it as described makes it easier to handle. Then let biochemical gluten development do all the work for you. When I make my pizzas at home I always mix the dough using nothing but a large spoon, after a few minutes with the spoon the "dough" looks more like cottage cheese than what we think of as a dough, I turn it out of the bowl, oil the bowl, roll the dough ball a couple of times in a little dusting flour and roughly shape it into what one might, in abstract, call a dough ball, then place the dough ball back into the bowl, cover with a piece of plastic, and let nature run its course for the next several hours, then turn the dough out of the bowl, portion and form into better shaped balls, oil each dough ball and place into a plastic bread bag to cold ferment for 24 to 48-hours. To open the dough balls, remove from the fridge and allow to temper AT room temperature for about 2-3-hours, then turn out of the bag onto a flour dusted counter top and begin opening each sough ball into a pizza skin. You can add your own twists to the procedure, but this is my basic dough making procedure.
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Offline fazzari

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2016, 03:01:02 PM »
This seems like a good place to ask this question since it relates to All Trumps.  And I don't mean to offend if this mixes bread making with pizza making, I just would like to know why this seems to be.  Back in 2013, 2014 I began experimenting with stretch and folds.  In one experiment I did, I compared stretch and folded dough to mechanically mixed dough and found the stretch and folded dough to be much stronger and seemed to make a better pizza especially as the dough aged in the fridge.  At the time Peter warned that I might be delving into  the breadmakers tool in comparison to the pizza maker's, so I apologize in advance if this is the way my question is inferred.  At the time Peter asked me to check and see how much my dough was developed "using" the stretch and fold method and so I took a picture of what I was experiencing.  The following picture is of my dough after: it was mixed 1 minute, rested 5 minutes, mixed another minute and then stretch and folded 4 times with 5 minute rests in between.  I know it's not a perfect window, but this is what I got when I tried to pull one.  Doesn't it seem that this dough is pretty well developed, or am I way off?  And if it is pretty well developed, why does the stretch and fold accomplish this??

John


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2016, 07:29:01 PM »
Nope, not well developed at all, when you have a well developed gluten film such as a baker might want to have when making hamburger buns, the film will be so thin and clear that you can actually read through it, and it will be so extensible that you really don't need to pull on the dough at all, just let gravity do the work for you and you should be looking at a gluten film that looks like an over blown balloon.
There is a point in dough mixing where the gluten comes together and exhibits maximum resistance to extension (stretch) if you look at a Farinogram this will be shown as the peak mixing time. It is not the point of maximum gluten development but rather just a reference point which is used to help sort out differences in mixing properties between different flour types.
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Offline DannyG

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2016, 09:08:28 AM »
Nope, not well developed at all, when you have a well developed gluten film such as a baker might want to have when making hamburger buns, the film will be so thin and clear that you can actually read through it, and it will be so extensible that you really don't need to pull on the dough at all, just let gravity do the work for you and you should be looking at a gluten film that looks like an over blown balloon.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Would love to see a photo or video of this.

I guess I'm a little confused. Tom, in your reply #16 you describe your minimal mixing process and letting time do the gluten development. Does this mean that at the end of your 25 to 48 cold fermentation the dough reaches full gluten development and will give you the "thin and clear" film? Or is that not desirable for pizza making and it's better to have a dough that is has not reached full development?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2016, 10:18:27 AM »
Some examples of window paning dough. Likely not to the extent that Tom is talking about. 





Offline TXCraig1

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2016, 10:59:17 AM »
That skin on the left I'm holding in the picture next to Chau is 250 or 275g KAAP.

I don't understand where in pizza you need 14%+ protein?
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Offline enchant

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2016, 11:50:23 AM »
Craig, you must have a really big oven!

;)
--pat--

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: All Trumps gluten delopment at home can't be done?
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2016, 08:13:38 PM »
Through biochemical you can indeed achieve full gluten development. No, a 14% protein content really isn't needed to make pizza. The only thing that the higher protein level provides is a level of tolerance to over fermentation or greater tolerance to the acid content of a sourdough starter, or should I say the use of too much starter.
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