Author Topic: Re: Pizza Town Clone  (Read 12458 times)

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scott123

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2012, 05:56:17 PM »
Well... I think part of the discrepancy might be that Mark's definition of 'crispy' might be a little different than mine (and possibly yours).  I think he might be used to pretty crunchy well done neo-NY pies. I think another component could have been that you ate your pizza while it was hotter and his had sat for a bit.

I'm relatively certain that Bruce pushes the bake time and thus gets a crispier (but drier) pizza than his sister but I'm thinking he goes into the 5 minute realm, not 7.

Generally speaking, a fresh from the oven whole pie will have some crispiness to the rim, but the bottom will droop, especially after it's sat on the tray for a bit, as seen here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13112.0.html

It's only when you get into the re-heated slices that you find true undercrust crispiness/cracking.

Another thing to consider is that pizza guys are especially sketchy on bake times- especially an old school guy like Bruce. It's like the old school guys that measure water with coffee cans- none of these folks are looking at their watches.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 05:57:59 PM by scott123 »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2012, 06:27:39 PM »
Unless I was so overcome by the pizza that it is fogging up my memory, the 2nd slice I ate that had sat on the tray for around 5 minutes was also crispy.  When I say crispy crunchy, I am talking about a slice that stands straight out.  It was definitely not floppy or had softened up much despite sitting and when those slices came out of the oven, the cheese was like molten lava, so that slice was definitely steaming away.  None of my moderate hydration pies stay that crispy that long unless it's a bromated HG flour and really overmixed.  But then I get a dough ball more like Bruno Di Fabio that requires quite a bit more effor to open than PT's dough. 

Yes as I mentioned before, I also question the 7 minute bake time.   Anyways, thanks for the banter. 


scott123

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2012, 06:35:12 PM »
Chau, with your 68% dough, are you able to handle it as aggressively as Michelle's or is it a bit more extensible?

I can't say I ever recall having a slice from a whole pie that stood straight out, although I've honestly never taken the time to see if it could.

This doesn't jive with Mark's floppy assessment, but perhaps Bruce's thickness factor might be effecting his rigidity.  I do know, for a fact, that Bruce doesn't stretch the dough as far as Michelle does (another one of my many Bruce related complaints ;) ).

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2012, 06:51:19 PM »
Scott, I wish I had gotten a video of me opening the latest dough, but it seem to open just as their dough opened in the video you posted.   It had a very similar elasticity & extensibility.   But that is mixing 50/50 Con Agra Power Flour with Con Agra HG bleached and bromated flour.  Also my 68% here in the arid climate of NM is probably closer to 64% where you are at.  Also as a point of reference, I typically will use around 66% hydration for Power flour and 70-72% for HG bleach and bromated flour.  And that is not counting an additional 2% shortening in the mix.   I may have to try to get my hands on the same flour they use and play around with different hydrations.  

I also make the dough the night before and my dough is CF overnight at around 50F.  I don't know if they are using a same day dough or CF overnight as well.   CF does add a degree of strength to the dough as well.  

The next time you or anyone eats there, and especially with a Bruce pie, see if you can do the stiffness test and report back.  

Good point about TF affecting crispiness or rigidity.  I'll test that on the next bake stretching one pie thinner than the other and baking for the same amount of time.  
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 03:12:10 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2012, 09:57:43 PM »
I've never been to pizza town, although it is on my must visit list whenever I make it out east for a pizza pilgrimage, but I do have something to add to the current topic of conversation.

I'm doing a slightly different style(nobody tell Scott but I like more spring and a darker top, lol) but I have achieved stand out straight crispness in a 4 minute bake on an 18" pie.  The last pie here was baked on a slightly hotter hearth(700F+) and was very crisp, so much so my wife actually thought I went too far:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18455.0.html

That pie is 60% hydration with bread flour, extremely light kneading, 2 day cold ferment, 0.078 thickness factor.
-Jeff

Offline communist

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2012, 08:43:41 AM »
C
This doesn't jive with Mark's floppy assessment, but perhaps Bruce's thickness factor might be effecting his rigidity. 
Correct Scott.  The pie I got from Bruce was a great pie.  Clocked at 3:45 which has been documented elsewhere.  It was floppy, and the crust pale, as photos reveal.  It is apparent they reheat pies at times.  At my first visit, I would not want a reheat.  Let me have your pie out of the oven and see what you got.  No fuss - the NY pie is not about fuss.

I'm doing a slightly different style(nobody tell Scott but I like more spring and a darker top, lol) but I have achieved stand out straight crispness in a 4 minute bake on an 18" pie.  The last pie here was baked on a slightly hotter hearth(700F+) and was very crisp,
  Interesting, four minutes at 700 will create more crisp, but now char and dryness may become a ( unwanted? ) factor.  The Pizza Town pie I had was very thin - I believe all their pies must be .07 or below, the hydration factor must be below 60%, and the cheese and tomato topping sparse.  I am sure the baking time varies, and reheats can help crisp up a floppy crust.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2012, 03:26:08 PM »
Thanks Schuboyje for posting your numbers.  I always seem to find a use for any tid bit of information that is posted.  Most of my pies regardless of hydration are usually stiff and stand straight out when fresh out of the oven.  However if the hydration is a bit high or the gluten is not developed to my liking, they soften up on the plate.  

I like a crispy pie that stays crispy for the most part.  Yes, it will always soften to some extent, that is why I love reheated slices.  And according to me, that is my favorite crust.

For tonight's dough, I'm testing out the Con Agra high power flour against the Con Agra HG bleach and bromated flour.  I have also lowered the hydration 2 points for each batch to see what differences it will make.  I'm also playing around with a same day dough using a poolish.  

I'll be baking around 600-650 max with a goal bake time of 5-6minutes.  

Mark I hear you about NY pizza being no fuss and I agree, but for me personally reheats are the way to go.  It works out perfect since I can reheat a few slices for myself once the guests are eating and I am making the next pie.  That way not only do I get to eat, but I also get to have pizza my way.   ;D

Mark, 700F at 4 minutes doesn't neccesarily create more crisp.  Depends on the dough, but from what I have seen, if all else being equal meaning the dough is the same, longer bakes at lower temps create more crispy pizza.  It's as if the longer bake times allow for more of the moisture to be baked out.  We also see this phenomenon in bread as well.   There is an ideal bake time for each dough to create certain desired qualities.  Folks can argue over which of those qualities is better, but for crispy it's a longer bake.   The only issue with longer bakes is the drying or overbaking of the cheese.  Again, depending on how well done you like the cheese, all these things can be adjusted to bring the dough, bake time, cheese melt, crispness into focus.  

The issue of dryness with prolonged mixed times and baked times can be lessened by using oil or shortening in the formulation.   Again, there is a balance there.  I give up a little tenderness in the crumb for a bit more crisp to the rim and bottom.  

Thank you guys for the input, much appreciated.  

Chau  

Offline communist

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2012, 06:55:21 PM »
but for me personally reheats are the way to go.  It works out perfect since I can reheat a few slices for myself once the guests are eating and I am making the next pie.  That way not only do I get to eat, but I also get to have pizza my way.   





 
  I can understand your point of view - crisp can be enjoyable, and you deserve to have pizza your way :chef:  Thanks for sharing your research on the Pizza Town Clone!  Mark

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2012, 12:00:05 AM »
Hey--

Just chiming in with anecdotal evidence from tonight. Sorry in advance for no hard data - no times were measured since my head wasn't in that area until after the pie went in and my best estimate was a ~5 minute bake.

Anyway, had a friend visiting from the west coast so in order to show some good pizza as well as some NJ charm in the Pizza Town establishment, we headed up there and ordered a mushroom pie.

1) It was decidedly crispy.
2) No blistering on the undercrust, but a nice slight crunch.
3) Some explosive, dry voids in the edge crust.

Also, my first time with toppings there, quite enjoyable. A little less heavy on the oregano than sometimes - perhaps that's the hands of the maker as posted earlier in this thread (tonight the woman was on duty).

Sean


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2012, 12:25:57 AM »
Thanks Sean.  And this was a straight from the oven pie? No reheat correct?  If so, then the bake time is 5-6min.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2012, 12:42:37 AM »
Straight from it! You know the type - you have to exercise all of your self-restraint or give up some layers of skin from the roof of your mouth. Where the cheese/toppings are still liable to slosh everywhere since it's so fresh out of the oven. 5-6 sounds right on, though as I said I timed nothing.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2012, 12:54:50 AM »
Yes I do know Sean!  Our pizza from the pizza tour was that way.  If you look at the pic I posted in reply one, the cheese was bubbly and piping hot!  Yup, Mark time a 4min pie and it was floppy.  My dough opens up just like theirs and is relatively floppy at 4m.  5.5-6m at 600-625f hearth temp = crispy.  Now, rest and add a minute reheat and I'm in pizza heaven!  Thanks again.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 01:13:06 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2012, 01:06:22 AM »
Glad it was helpful! Very, interesting on the 4-6 min window how different it turns.  I guess I've seen that a little on my own bakes when I have fans of crispier pizza in the house. I can't decide which style I prefer, they're both so delicious and so good and I wish I had more in front of me right now...  some of yours!

Offline communist

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2012, 10:47:48 AM »
Great input Sean.  I think we are coming to an agreement on the crust issue.  At 625 stone deck, 3 and 1/2 to 4 minute bake, great pie with probable floppy crust, increase crisp as time increases 4 and 1/2 to 5.  Crisp lovers keep baking and hit 6 or 7 minutes.  Now, not to create another issue, but the high temp bake is good for a couple reasons, right? A quick bake does not allow the dough to dry out too much  ( so be cautious crisp lovers! ) and it gives great oven spring.  But Pizza Town's puff is nothing like Chau's or Norma's or mine.  I know their pie is really thin, but thier puff is not impressive.   Mark

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2012, 11:10:22 AM »
Mark dryness in the crust is another relative and debateable subject.  Dryness doesn't bother me as long as it's not chewy dry.  Is there any other kind of dry crust?  yes - for sure.   

As long as you have some oil or shortening in the dough, it really does help protect to a degree against dryness.  And even if the crust dries out, when you bite into it and chew it, it powders off like that of a cracker or chip.  It's not chewy.   The lone slices I had at PT on the tour were crispy for sure.  Even after a 5 min rest on the pan it was still crispy.  I also recall parts of the rim being completely dried through and crunchy crispy, but not chewy.  I love that texture too. 

The bigger issue with longer bakes, at least for me, is the cheese drying out.  This is where Grande would shine for me.  Not necessarrily the flavor but it's inherent ability to withstand higher temps and longer bakes. 

The lack of puff comes from overmixing and a relative lowish hydration even though their dough is well fermented and puffy at time of opening.  Overmixing (ie gluten strength building) also plays some role (to what degree I'm not sure) in the crispiness of the bottom and crust. 

Thank you guys for the discussion.  Much appreciated.

Mark, please let me see some pictures of your pizza.

Chau

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2012, 12:30:42 PM »
Your latest pie looks exceptional. 


Offline communist

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2012, 01:34:34 PM »
Thanks Chau, I am where I want to be in NY pie land.  Now, the excitement of fire and smoke and sweat is urging me to look at wood fired ovens, and do the NY pie in the back yard!  Your passion is contagious!  Mark

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2012, 07:25:05 PM »
Chau,
I was in north Jersey today and thought I would check Pizza Town out for the first time.  I ordered two slices and she put a whole cooked pie in to reheat my two slices.  After I ate 1/2 of the first slice I ordered a pie to go.  It was done before I finished the last two bites of the second piece crust.  I ordered one to go so I could check out the longevity of the crisp.  Thought the info on the reheat might add to your data.

Bob

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2012, 07:36:39 PM »
Thank you very much Bob.   Did you enjoy your 2 slices?  Any pictures of the bottoms or how long they reheat the whole pies for?   Did you happen to eat a slice of the whole pie to go that was not reheated?   If so, can you compare the crispiness of the 2 (reheated versus non reheated slices) and which one you liked better?

It sounds like you enjoyed their pizza otherwise you wouldn't have ordered a pie to go.   I'll post a video of one of my reheated slices later tonight.

Chau

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2012, 08:45:19 PM »
Chau,
Yes I enjoyed them, but did not take any pictures.  One note would be that the pie they reheated was in there for at least two to three minutes.  She put it in and then casually rang me up.  I then waited at least two minutes.  I would assume they are using the same temp and do not have one set lower, but it could be a possibility.  For being in there that long it was not boiling hot like the new pie.  They are so thin that I would have thought it would have been hotter.  It was about 2:30 and they were not that busy so the decks were at set temp.  Yes I did try the take home for experimental purposes.  It was crisp but not quite as crisp as the reheat.  When I got home two hours later my wife tried a slice that she barely warmed up in a 300 degree cold start toaster oven for five minutes.  It turned out to be just about as crisp as the finished product, but not the store reheat.  Better is a matter of preference and I would go with the crisper.  Above the crisp I like the high heat characteristic of the pie.  It is basically the same sauce and cheese that most pizza joints use but it so much fresher and moist on a new pie because of the flash cook. I enjoyed the overall product but it did not hook my personal taste versus the calories.  I lean to specialty pies with complex sauces and enough TF to bring them  out.  

I brought one home mainly for experimental purposes because one can always learn.  I have been playing with shortening for a few pies the last couple of weeks.  If you remember I had posted the King Arthur fat rundown that you had looked at a few weeks back.  I have not explored it yet but I want to try taking 20% of the flour at different hydrations  and add the shortening, then add the rest of the ingredients to see what happens.  I know you want to clone the Pizza Town but at the same time you like crisp.  You may want to consider using Durham as that 20% to see if that helps, however I see no trace of Durham in PT.

I will let you know how they heat up over the next day or two.

Bob

 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 08:50:25 PM by Bob1 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2012, 09:07:51 PM »
Thank you Bob for the added details.  I'm not really wanting to clone PT pizza per se.  I just really enjoyed it immensely and realize that what I enjoyed so much was the crisp of the reheated pies.  I have since been able to duplicate that crisp and my pizza is very similar to theirs and that's good enough for me.  

Here is a video I made of a reheated slice.  Listen to the crunch and crisp.  The crust is crispy but also very light and easy to chew and eat.  I am addicted to the crack and crisp!  This slice is 100% Con Agra High Power HG flour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRAIfLeN-Qw&feature=youtu.be
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 09:18:06 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2012, 09:30:16 PM »
Sounds good I assume that is the 2% shortening after a few minute mix?  None of the slices I had were that crisp.

Thanks,

Bob

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2012, 07:51:56 AM »
Sounds good I assume that is the 2% shortening after a few minute mix?  None of the slices I had were that crisp.

Thanks,

Bob

Yes, I typically add the shortening after a min to 2 min of mixing on low speed, but there's no reason why it couldn't be added up front either.  I don't think it would make a difference.   I think the audio quality on my camera is enhanced a bit as it always sounds louder on camera.   In person though, the crispiness, textures, and mouth feel are about on par with the 2 slices that I had from PT. 

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2012, 09:06:16 AM »
Chau,

I reheated the slices two days later and hey still held up for crispness.  Ii would say about the same as when it came out of the oven the first time.  A little less under the tomato part but the crust was the same.  I did them at 300 in a toaster oven rack for about 10 minutes.


 

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