Author Topic: Re: Pizza Town Clone (Read 6079 times)

PizzaSean · « **Reply #60 on:** May 07, 2012, 12:42:37 AM »

Straight from it! You know the type - you have to exercise all of your self-restraint or give up some layers of skin from the roof of your mouth. Where the cheese/toppings are still liable to slosh everywhere since it's so fresh out of the oven. 5-6 sounds right on, though as I said I timed nothing.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #61 on:** May 07, 2012, 12:54:50 AM »

Yes I do know Sean! Our pizza from the pizza tour was that way. If you look at the pic I posted in reply one, the cheese was bubbly and piping hot! Yup, Mark time a 4min pie and it was floppy. My dough opens up just like theirs and is relatively floppy at 4m. 5.5-6m at 600-625f hearth temp = crispy. Now, rest and add a minute reheat and I'm in pizza heaven! Thanks again.

PizzaSean · « **Reply #62 on:** May 07, 2012, 01:06:22 AM »

Glad it was helpful! Very, interesting on the 4-6 min window how different it turns. I guess I've seen that a little on my own bakes when I have fans of crispier pizza in the house. I can't decide which style I prefer, they're both so delicious and so good and I wish I had more in front of me right now... some of yours!

communist · « **Reply #63 on:** May 07, 2012, 10:47:48 AM »

Great input Sean. I think we are coming to an agreement on the crust issue. At 625 stone deck, 3 and 1/2 to 4 minute bake, great pie with probable floppy crust, increase crisp as time increases 4 and 1/2 to 5. Crisp lovers keep baking and hit 6 or 7 minutes. Now, not to create another issue, but the high temp bake is good for a couple reasons, right? A quick bake does not allow the dough to dry out too much ( so be cautious crisp lovers! ) and it gives great oven spring. But Pizza Town's puff is nothing like Chau's or Norma's or mine. I know their pie is really thin, but thier puff is not impressive. Mark

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #64 on:** May 07, 2012, 11:10:22 AM »

Mark dryness in the crust is another relative and debateable subject. Dryness doesn't bother me as long as it's not chewy dry. Is there any other kind of dry crust? yes - for sure.

As long as you have some oil or shortening in the dough, it really does help protect to a degree against dryness. And even if the crust dries out, when you bite into it and chew it, it powders off like that of a cracker or chip. It's not chewy. The lone slices I had at PT on the tour were crispy for sure. Even after a 5 min rest on the pan it was still crispy. I also recall parts of the rim being completely dried through and crunchy crispy, but not chewy. I love that texture too.

The bigger issue with longer bakes, at least for me, is the cheese drying out. This is where Grande would shine for me. Not necessarrily the flavor but it's inherent ability to withstand higher temps and longer bakes.

The lack of puff comes from overmixing and a relative lowish hydration even though their dough is well fermented and puffy at time of opening. Overmixing (ie gluten strength building) also plays some role (to what degree I'm not sure) in the crispiness of the bottom and crust.

Thank you guys for the discussion. Much appreciated.

Mark, please let me see some pictures of your pizza.

Chau

communist · « **Reply #65 on:** May 07, 2012, 11:37:46 AM »

Pics Chau http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12887.120.html#lastPost

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #66 on:** May 07, 2012, 12:30:42 PM »

Your latest pie looks exceptional.

communist · « **Reply #67 on:** May 07, 2012, 01:34:34 PM »

Thanks Chau, I am where I want to be in NY pie land. Now, the excitement of fire and smoke and sweat is urging me to look at wood fired ovens, and do the NY pie in the back yard! Your passion is contagious! Mark

Bob1 · « **Reply #68 on:** May 08, 2012, 07:25:05 PM »

Chau,
I was in north Jersey today and thought I would check Pizza Town out for the first time. I ordered two slices and she put a whole cooked pie in to reheat my two slices. After I ate 1/2 of the first slice I ordered a pie to go. It was done before I finished the last two bites of the second piece crust. I ordered one to go so I could check out the longevity of the crisp. Thought the info on the reheat might add to your data.

Bob

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #69 on:** May 08, 2012, 07:36:39 PM »

Thank you very much Bob. Did you enjoy your 2 slices? Any pictures of the bottoms or how long they reheat the whole pies for? Did you happen to eat a slice of the whole pie to go that was not reheated? If so, can you compare the crispiness of the 2 (reheated versus non reheated slices) and which one you liked better?

It sounds like you enjoyed their pizza otherwise you wouldn't have ordered a pie to go. I'll post a video of one of my reheated slices later tonight.

Chau

Bob1 · « **Reply #70 on:** May 08, 2012, 08:45:19 PM »

Chau,
Yes I enjoyed them, but did not take any pictures. One note would be that the pie they reheated was in there for at least two to three minutes. She put it in and then casually rang me up. I then waited at least two minutes. I would assume they are using the same temp and do not have one set lower, but it could be a possibility. For being in there that long it was not boiling hot like the new pie. They are so thin that I would have thought it would have been hotter. It was about 2:30 and they were not that busy so the decks were at set temp. Yes I did try the take home for experimental purposes. It was crisp but not quite as crisp as the reheat. When I got home two hours later my wife tried a slice that she barely warmed up in a 300 degree cold start toaster oven for five minutes. It turned out to be just about as crisp as the finished product, but not the store reheat. Better is a matter of preference and I would go with the crisper. Above the crisp I like the high heat characteristic of the pie. It is basically the same sauce and cheese that most pizza joints use but it so much fresher and moist on a new pie because of the flash cook. I enjoyed the overall product but it did not hook my personal taste versus the calories. I lean to specialty pies with complex sauces and enough TF to bring them out.

I brought one home mainly for experimental purposes because one can always learn. I have been playing with shortening for a few pies the last couple of weeks. If you remember I had posted the King Arthur fat rundown that you had looked at a few weeks back. I have not explored it yet but I want to try taking 20% of the flour at different hydrations and add the shortening, then add the rest of the ingredients to see what happens. I know you want to clone the Pizza Town but at the same time you like crisp. You may want to consider using Durham as that 20% to see if that helps, however I see no trace of Durham in PT.

I will let you know how they heat up over the next day or two.

Bob

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #71 on:** May 08, 2012, 09:07:51 PM »

Thank you Bob for the added details. I'm not really wanting to clone PT pizza per se. I just really enjoyed it immensely and realize that what I enjoyed so much was the crisp of the reheated pies. I have since been able to duplicate that crisp and my pizza is very similar to theirs and that's good enough for me.

Here is a video I made of a reheated slice. Listen to the crunch and crisp. The crust is crispy but also very light and easy to chew and eat. I am addicted to the crack and crisp! This slice is 100% Con Agra High Power HG flour.

Bob1 · « **Reply #72 on:** May 08, 2012, 09:30:16 PM »

Sounds good I assume that is the 2% shortening after a few minute mix? None of the slices I had were that crisp.

Thanks,

Bob

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #73 on:** May 10, 2012, 07:51:56 AM »

Quote from: Bob1 on May 08, 2012, 09:30:16 PM

Sounds good I assume that is the 2% shortening after a few minute mix? None of the slices I had were that crisp.

Thanks,

Bob

Yes, I typically add the shortening after a min to 2 min of mixing on low speed, but there's no reason why it couldn't be added up front either. I don't think it would make a difference. I think the audio quality on my camera is enhanced a bit as it always sounds louder on camera. In person though, the crispiness, textures, and mouth feel are about on par with the 2 slices that I had from PT.

Bob1 · « **Reply #74 on:** May 18, 2012, 09:06:16 AM »

Chau,

I reheated the slices two days later and hey still held up for crispness. Ii would say about the same as when it came out of the oven the first time. A little less under the tomato part but the crust was the same. I did them at 300 in a toaster oven rack for about 10 minutes.

jason83 · « **Reply #75 on:** May 21, 2012, 06:22:10 PM »

Hey Chau,

Great looking pies!! I'm curious-do you prefer cake yeast over other types when making NY style pizzas? And do you find that using lard in the crust makes a better crust than oil? I appreciate it!

Jason

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #76 on:** May 21, 2012, 08:55:01 PM »

Thanks Bob1. Would love to see pics of your pies sometime. One of the best things about my pies now is that they reheat so very well. I would say about as good as fresh and in their own way better. Hard to describe, but I love reheated slices. Not just reheating any pizza as my past effots were never this good. But the bottom crust is absolutely crispy, yet tender and very light. It's a beautiful thing.

Quote from: jason83 on May 21, 2012, 06:22:10 PM

Hey Chau,

Great looking pies!! I'm curious-do you prefer cake yeast over other types when making NY style pizzas? And do you find that using lard in the crust makes a better crust than oil? I appreciate it!

Jason

Thanks Jason. Of course all the different types of yeast work. For NY style, I mostly work with IDY, CY, and a SD starter occassionally. The absolute best results will probably come from a properly maintained and used starter with probably the most inconsistent results. For me, when the stars line up the starter pies are great. Awesome texture and flavor, but it's not all the time. I've almost given up on starters, except for making some types of bread. Starters are notoriously difficult to get right. You won't notice this until you've work with a particular starter using the same recipe and technique for awhile. Most folks that jump into starters and make a passable pie, will be happy. But when you can get starters to really sing, it's hard to match. But I suspect probably only a handful of ppl here are able to do it consistently.

For NY pies though, I really love to use CY over IDY. I can get consistently great results using either, but if I had a choice, my choice is CY. And I can't pinpoint the major differences between CY and IDY other than CY gives a better lift. It's not really the flavor although a dough made with CY will smell better. But fresh CY is hard to beat for me. The differences are probably not that dramatic to most ppl, but for me when I have time to go get a block, I don't hesitate. Currently it's my favorite form of yeast for any style of pizza and getting consistent results. I am getting lazy and starters are becoming too much work for me.

But looking at the big picture, there are so many other factors to worry about getting right before CY will make a meaningful difference over IDY or ADY. I wouldn't worry about sourcing CY or using it unless you could easily get it from a nearby bakery. Probably not worth the drive across town unless you have your recipe dialed in, if that makes sense.

I have chosen to not be vocal about my use of shortening until recently. NY style pies can be made with and without oil. But if you are going to use oil in the dough, shortening is unequivocally the way to go. I don't care much for tradition or who says what. I absolutely know what my senses tell me and I trust senses far more than any expert out there. From the tests that I have done, shortening beats oil by far. It's not even close for me. And I can promise you my recipes and techniques are consistent. Meaning the only difference is the oil or shortening. Test after test, the shortening wins.

But it may come down to preferrence in texture and taste rather than one being better than the other. For me, I prefer shortening over oil. If I don't have shortening, I will make a trip to the store rather than use oil instead. So for me, it's much more important than CY vs IDY.

Chau

norma427 · « **Reply #77 on:** May 21, 2012, 09:33:35 PM »

Quote from: Jackie Tran on May 21, 2012, 08:55:01 PM

I have chosen to not be vocal about my use of shortening until recently. NY style pies can be made with and without oil. But if you are going to use oil in the dough, shortening is unequivocally the way to go. I don't care much for tradition or who says what. I absolutely know what my senses tell me and I trust senses far more than any expert out there. From the tests that I have done, shortening beats oil by far. It's not even close for me. And I can promise you my recipes and techniques are consistent. Meaning the only difference is the oil or shortening. Test after test, the shortening wins.

But it may come down to preferrence in texture and taste rather than one being better than the other. For me, I prefer shortening over oil.

Chau

Chau,

It is interesting that you prefer shortening over oil for NY style pies after doing the experiments. I haven’t really done that many experiments with shortening, but might do a few after your post. What brand of shortening do you use? Is there any particular amount in percents that you like?

Thanks!

Norma

Bob1 · « **Reply #78 on:** May 21, 2012, 10:44:57 PM »

Norma,
I also prefer the shortening, but it is totally different than oil. It starts to give the dough more of a hard bread stick quality depending on the amount. I thought you were pursuing that with your M&M pies, but I did not follow the thread that much. I have a couple places near me that use it. It is interesting but it seems that the places I see using shortening started in the 50's. I wonder if there is a connection? What sparked it and why? For the M&M I would start with 1% and move up 2% but not more than that. Personally I do not think the brand matters that much, I used Crisco and it worked fine, but then again I did not try others. I do have a yen to try Craig's brand.
http://www.conagrafoodservice.com/ProductDetail.do;jsessionid=33758431EC0708E4DE08D2E6B1E31816?productUpc=2700073651

Chau,
I do not bake as much anymore because of the calories. This leaves my experiment to a couple of times a month. I am also busy trying to get my WFO done. I am mainly working on a specialty pie with a specialty sauce that is different from the norm. My use of shortening is for a different effect that the PT pie has, but I found it interesting and enjoyable in the NY style. I will try to start posting pictures again, it has been a while.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #79 on:** May 21, 2012, 11:20:44 PM »

Norma I agree with Bob1 on all his points. It does not matter what type or brand of shortening. Currently, I am using a generic brand called "Shopper's Value". I personally like to use 2%, but have use 1% - 4%. The increasing amounts of shortening behaves just like oil in that it makes the crumb increasing tender, the more you use.

The amount used will be dictated by texture preference and the type of flour used. If I am using a 12-13% protein flour I will typically use 2% shortening. If I am using a flour that is 14%+ protein, I like to use 3% shortening.

It is added melted and after 1 min or so of mixing.

Bob, I agree. Shortening, at least for me, does give a completely different texture compared to using oil. The way I would describe it is that it gives the dough a drier crumb effect compared to oil. Where oil gives a soft moist or even wet effect, shortening gives a more dry but yet tender crumb effect. I prefer the shortening crumb hands down. Bob1, exciting to hear that you are trying to get your wfo done. Please post pics of the oven and pies when you finish and have time.

Bob1, I don't know if Pizza Town uses oil or shortening in their dough. I started this thread wanting to duplicate their pizza but along the way, I realized that it was the crunchy crispy effect in the crust that I wanted to duplicate. By using shortening and reheats, I was able to capture that effect quite well. It may very well be that they use oil in their dough, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out it's shortening. The texture of my crust is now very very similar to pizza town's reheated slices.

Chau