Trying to find out crust category

[jcg]

OK, here are the pics of the 2 doughs. Neither dough has the characteristics of Zachary's yet. If you see the previous post where the I crushed the Zachary's dough in my hands it crumbed, but if I do the same test with both dough 1 and dough 2 there are absolutely no crumbs. The dough just kind of crunchs / folds / cracks in my hands but stays in one bready piece. Both doughs were made at the same time, stayed at room temp for about 2-3 hours until they approx doubled in size (dough 2 with more hydration and sugar got a bit bigger than dough 1), then stayed in the fridge for 24 hours. I took them both out about 1 hour before making the pizza, put them in a 100 degree oven until the internal temps of both were approx 78 degrees. I then carefully rolled / stretched them out so they would not get overworked (which was the fear of what happened the first time). Both doughs could be cut with a fork vs last time I needed a knife, so I don't think they got overworked.

I also examined the Zachary dough a bit more and when you look very closely at it you almost see layers in it, and if you poke gently at it with a knife and try to pry it apart it does seem to also break along lines. For those that saw the recent America's Test Kitchen show on Chicago pizza (there is also a post about it in the Chicago style board) I'm thinking that might be the key. Anyways with all this new info any thoughts Pete?

As I side note this is my 2nd pizza with the 6:1 tomatoes and I'm not a fan (they have a tomato paste texture to them). I'm not sure what all the hype is on different threads, but unfortunately I ordered a case of 8 online so I'll have to figure out other recipes where they may work better.

jcg

[jcg]

OK, I just rewatched the America's Test Kitchen show on their version of the Malnati's deep dish pizza and posted the baker's version of their dough recipe over on the ATK thread in the chicago board. In my last post after I watched the show for the first time I thought it might be the answer to my Zachary's dough problems, but now I don't think so. From the ATK thread their dough has a total hydration of ~72.5% which is pretty high I believe. Unless the link that had the Zachary's recipe is completely false and just trying to deceive people there is no butter in the recipe so they can't be doing a lamination type dough like ATK's version. My last attempt still used AP flour as the high protein types Pete-zza mentioned aren't available on the West Coast. Plus it seems to me that a high protein flour would make even more gluten than an AP flour and that seems the opposite of what I trying for (based on the crumbly dough pics from my previous attempt posts).

So I'm thinking that with my last attempt where I made 2 doughs (one like my original attempt and one with more hydration), I went the wrong direction with the 2nd dough. I think I should have tried to make a dough that is even less than 50% hydration, not more. Does that sound right? The original dough had a total hydration of 52%, so maybe I should try to get close to 40% or is that not possible? Does a super low total hydration dough break apart and crumble like the pic I posted?

jcg

[Pete-zza]

jcg,

I was out of town again when you entered your last few posts, but I am back home again and have reviewed this thread again to get me back up to speed.

I agree that the inside crust of a Zachary's pizza is likely to be thinner than what you have been testing, based on the fact that the inside skin used to make a Zachary's pizza overlaps the deep-dish pan so much. I am also now suspicious of the 2/3-1/3 ratio. Had the original recipe given actual weights for the two dough balls (one for the inside crust and the second for the top thin crust), we would have a better grasp of the numbers. I think the Zachary's folks who came up with the recipe just guessed on the ratio to simplify matters for home pizza makers who might attempt the pizza.

I also am inclined to believe that the hydration of the Zachary's dough is properly on the low side. That, coupled with the small amount of oil used in the dough and rolling out the dough for the inside skin so that it can overlap the pan by such a large amount, should yield a fairly crackery crust with what appears to be layers and with crumbly characteristics. Such a crust shouldn't be crispy, only cracker-like but with some give without completely breaking. For a Zachary's-like inside crust, I think you might want to use a thickness factor of around 0.095-0.10 as a test value. The top thin crust might have a thickness value of around 0.05-0.06, again for test purposes.

With respect to the flour, you might consider using General Mills' Better for Bread flour. That is a softer flour than other bread flours and might be suitable as a substitute for the Ceresota/Hecker's flour that many deep-dish operators in the Chicago area use. The Better for Bread flour is also an unbleached, unbromated flour (as is the Ceresota/Hecker's flour) and, as such, should pass muster under California law. Another flour possibility is the Pillsbury bread flour. If I can find specs for the Better for Bread and Pillsbury bread flours, and then compare them with the specs for the Ceresota/Hecker's flour, maybe I can zero in better on which flour is the better one to use.

Until we see if you can get closer to a Zachary's clone pizza, I am inclined to stick with the baker's percents that we originally came up with from the recipe you posted. If you can tell me what size Zachary's clone pizza you would like to try next, maybe we can come up with a test dough formulation for you to use. Of course, any additional information on the Zachary's pizzas that you can come up with is likely to be helpful. In this regard, I was glad to hear that you were able to confirm my suspicions that Zachary's is using roller equipment (hand rolling with Zachary's volume of hundreds of pizzas a day just wouldn't make sense). If I had to guess, I would say they are using either an Anets or Somerset dual-pass roller.

Peter

[jcg]

Here is a recipe for a .100 thickness, 9" pizza (with 2" sides) - remember I'm not making a top crust. I made the hydration 40%, but not sure if that is too low??? Will a dough like this even form into a dough ball? I think our Safeway store carries the better for bread flour, so will that type of flour generate a more crumbly crust than AP flour? I would think a higher gluten flour would make a more bready dough vs crumbly?

Flour (100%):    218.49 g  |  7.71 oz | 0.48 lbs
Water (40%):    87.4 g  |  3.08 oz | 0.19 lbs
ADY (1%):    2.18 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.58 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
Salt (2%):    4.37 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%):    4.37 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Sugar (1.75%):    3.82 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Total (146.75%):   320.63 g | 11.31 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = 0.1

jcg

[Pete-zza]

jcg,

The recipe you posted has a lot of similarities to the DKM cracker-style dough recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php but with a somewhat higher hydration value. I have never had a Zachary's stuffed pizza but I would be very surprised if they use a dough with a hydration as low as 40%. However, I am a believer in learning through doing, so if you distrust the Zachary numbers in the recipe referenced in Reply 2 of this thread, then by all means give it a go. In your case, one of the challenges will be in making only 11.31 ounces of dough. That might be too little for a stand mixer but might work with a food processor, although even that machine may not form a dough ball that holds together. You most likely will have to do that by hand. You can also make the dough entirely by hand but there are challenges even there, as I discovered when I conducted experiments with DKM's recipe in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg48991.html#msg48991 (see, for example, Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49722.html#msg49722). Since I do not believe that Zachary's is using a dough with a hydration as low as 40%, I would prefer not to torture you by having you read the abovementioned thread even though I think you would learn a lot from doing so.

With respect to the flour, the article that you linked to in Reply 2 says that the flour used at Zachary's is a "high protein" flour. Of all the widely available national retail brands of all-purpose flour that I am aware of, perhaps the one with the highest protein content is the King Arthur brand of all-purpose flour, with a protein content of 10.7%. Almost no one would consider such a flour to be a "high protein" flour. My recollection from Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42171.html#msg42171 is that the Heckers/Ceresota flour, which has a much smaller retail distribution footprint than King Arthur, has a protein content of about 12.5%. I think you have to get in the range of around 12% and above to be considered a high protein flour. As you can see from the specs for the Better for Bread flour (previously called Harvest King flour) at the General Mills website at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKingWest53722(West).doc, that flour has a protein content of 12% +/-0.3%. For comparison purpose, the Pillsbury bread flour, which is also a popular retail level brand, has a nominal protein content of 12.9% according to the Nutrition Facts given at http://www.pillsburybaking.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?catID=299&prodID=719. I think any one of the three flours mentioned above with the higher protein levels, with proper dough preparation and management, are good candidates for a Zachary's clone.

Peter

[jcg]

OK, here's a new version that changes the hydration to 45% since as you say I don't want to make this too hard on myself. I also don't think I want to get down to the super low hydration levels of a traditional cracker crust since I don't think Zachary's is a cracker crust (it's just kind of crumbly). I also changed the percentages on the ADY, salt, olive oil and sugar to make them all work out to exact teaspoon measurements. I probably won't be making a DD pizza for a week or so, but I'll post when I do.

Flour (100%):    210.03 g  |  7.41 oz | 0.46 lbs
Water (45%):    94.51 g  |  3.33 oz | 0.21 lbs
ADY (1.35%):    2.84 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Salt (2.28%):    4.79 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.14%):    4.49 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Sugar (1.89%):    3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Total (152.66%):   320.63 g | 11.31 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = 0.1

jcg

[jcg]

OK, working on attempt #3. Making the dough tonight for a 14" pizza (2" sides, .10 thickness, and 45% hydration). ADY/salt/olive oil/sugar percents mildly tweaked to get round teaspoon measurements. I'll post tomorrow on how the crust comes out. My store carried Gold Medal Better For Bread flour, so this will be the first crust with the higher protein flour.

Flour (100%):    429.2 g  |  15.14 oz | 0.95 lbs
Water (45%):    193.14 g  |  6.81 oz | 0.43 lbs
ADY (1.32%):    5.67 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Salt (2.24%):    9.61 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.1%):    9.01 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Sugar (1.86%):    7.98 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Total (152.52%):   654.62 g | 23.09 oz | 1.44 lbs | TF = 0.1

jcg

[jcg]

OK it looks like this crust is the closest yet, but still not there yet. It does seem that making the dough hydration lower, is making it a bit more crumbly (vs the last few that were more bready). I think my dough is still tougher than Zachary's (can't cut through it with a fork unless you use quite a bit of pressure) but not sure why. I mixed the dough by hand and it did take awhile (~4-5 min) to get all the flour to actually incorporate into the dough. I let the dough double in size, then put it in the fridge around 10PM last night, took it out around 5PM today, let it rest at room temp to warm up for an hour, and then finally rolled it out.

At this stage not sure what to try next. Would using a mixer make it more crumbly? I have an aluminum pizza pan vs the dark ones, so would that make a big difference? I did use the bread flour, so what impact did that have vs the lower hydration? Maybe these low hydration doughs need a roller, and you just can't do it by hand? I'm put the pizza pan on a pizza stone that is on the lowest rack in a 450 degree oven, so maybe I shouldn't put it on the pizza stone as it's getting to much direct heat? Should I try an even lower hydration or is the issue just in my mixing/handling/cooking of the dough?

At this point my first dough (the Lou Malnati recipe from the Chicago board) was my favorite. It's not like Zachary's of course as it is a very high hydration dough with lots of oil/butter, but it sure is super easy to make and tastes great. If there are no big breakthroughs in what to try next I may just go back to that dough, and call it a day as it seems there is no one else from the bay area on these boards interested in pursuing this Zachary recreation.

jcg

[terhorst]

Hi there,

I pretty much joined this forum / web site to participate in this thread. Making pizza that's as good as Zachary's has been an obsessionhobby of mine ever since I first tried it 10 years ago. As far as the crust goes, here are two things I haven't seen you mention that might improve yours:

• They liberally coat the inside of the pan with margarine or shortening before inserting the dough. That is what makes it so crispy and rich.
• The layered, "crackery" texture is I think due to their production system. If you watch closely, they will take the leftover "trimmings" from a pizza and chuck them back into a big bin full of dough. To make the next one the pull some dough out of the bin, ball it up and run it through a sheeter. The result is that the dough gets sheeted and folded multiple times before it winds up in your pizza crust. This is roughly similar to how you make croissants, which have the same layered texture.
• Making the crust too thick and bready is the easiest way to screw up this recipe. That is why having a sheeter is so nice. But unfortunately I don't have $3000 or an entire workspace to devote to that.

I got most of this info firsthand from chatting up ex-Zachary's employees at parties.

[netih]

Hello all!

I realize I am posting to a thread which has been inactive for sometime, but due to it establishing itself as the Zachary's DD thread, I figured this would be the best place to continue and hopefully even get an update from individuals on the past year.

Similar to JCG and terhorst, I am from the bay area and joined the forums due to my obsession/hysteria with Zachary's spinach and mushroom pizza. I anticipate I have had this particular pizza well over 50 times in the last 10 years (more than any other dish/restaurant). For someone who generally eats out rarely and likes to try out new places when I do, this is a lot!

As I am brand new to this forum and using dough of any kind, there will be a large period of time for me to get up to speed on terminology and get some practice in.

Curious as to whether JCG, terhorst, or any other individuals have further attempted this recipe/cause. I would love to hear more about any attempts/ progress.

[pythonic]

Hello all!

I realize I am posting to a thread which has been inactive for sometime, but due to it establishing itself as the Zachary's DD thread, I figured this would be the best place to continue and hopefully even get an update from individuals on the past year.

Similar to JCG and terhorst, I am from the bay area and joined the forums due to my obsession/hysteria with Zachary's spinach and mushroom pizza. I anticipate I have had this particular pizza well over 50 times in the last 10 years (more than any other dish/restaurant). For someone who generally eats out rarely and likes to try out new places when I do, this is a lot!

As I am brand new to this forum and using dough of any kind, there will be a large period of time for me to get up to speed on terminology and get some practice in.

Curious as to whether JCG, terhorst, or any other individuals have further attempted this recipe/cause. I would love to hear more about any attempts/ progress.

Welcome to the forums.  I don't think any of  the past predecessors of this thread are around here anymore.  except for Petezza. vLooking at this pie it appears very close to Giordano's famous stuffed pizza in Chicago.  A good place to start would be to find out what flour Zachary's is using.  You can find this out by being friendly with employees or if u really want to take it to the next step u can dumpster dive lol.  The hardest part to this type of pizza is the layers.  Without a sheeter or roller it will be very hard to duplicate.  The layers are what make stuffed pizzas really good.

Nate