Author Topic: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!  (Read 28187 times)

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Offline nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #160 on: August 11, 2013, 01:28:16 PM »
The cracker recipe I am going to modify calls for butter. That would change the flavor profile of the crust. I was going to use vegetable oil, but maybe corn oil would be better. What do you think? I just got back from the store and got all my ingredients for the pie. Now I realized that I forgot the flour. It's OK, I am making the dough ball tomorrow night, and using it the next day. This may be a total failure, but you have to learn from your mistakes. I have used AP flour in a cracker crust before, and it seemed to work out well. I am going for a lighter, but still sturdy crust. If that makes any sense.


Offline nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #161 on: August 13, 2013, 08:55:47 PM »
Well, I think I have more questions than answers after this pie. I used this saltine cracker recipe for the crust, with modifications.
1 cup unbleached all-purpose flour

2 Tablespoons unsalted butter, melted

cup water

teaspoon kosher salt

water for brushing

kosher or sea salt for sprinkling

I doubled the recipe size. I modified it by adding yeast and baking soda.

This is what I came up with after converting the ingredients from volume to weight.

Flour 100% 253.14g
Water 47%  118.98g
Baking Soda  1/4 teaspoon
IDY   1%      1.27g  about 1/4 teaspoon
Salt   1%      1.27g  about 1/2 teaspoon
Oil     4 tablespoons

I made the dough using a food processor, and let the dough rest in the fridge for 24 hours. I proceeded in the shaping and cooking as usual. The skin was very crispy and was easy to bite though. It was nice, crispy, and light. But it did not turn out like the saltine crackers I had made in the past. I was thinking it was the higher cook temps. The crackers cooked at 400 degrees, but I par baked the skin at 550 and then finished at 425. I also was thinking that the yeast or baking powder was the cause. It was closer to a PH crust but something was still missing. It seemed too dense and did not puff up like the crackers. Then, when I was writing this, I realized I made a major mistake. I used 2 tablespoons of oil instead of of 4. So, this more closely follows my cracker pie crust recipe.
  I almost did not post this, but mistakes help us in our learning process. So this was a big one. Now I have to do this again, I'll be more careful when making the recipe. It was a good tasting pie, but not at all what I was hoping for. This is Monday, so I was due one mistake.

Later this week I am going to do the saltine cracker recipe. If it turns out like the recipe, I will use it to make a pizza. I will add some baking soda to see what kind of lift I get and flavor.

 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 10:04:01 PM by nick57 »

Offline ct4640

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #162 on: August 13, 2013, 10:58:21 PM »
that looks great to me. so 2  T butter and 4 T oil? dumb question here but  i  must have missed something.when do you brush with water? i will have to try butter and baking soda. i can get thinner rolling out right on the parchment rather than transferring to a  pan  but im not even close to being in your league yet. mine eat good  but you are on another level. very nice

Offline nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #163 on: August 14, 2013, 09:10:02 AM »
I did not use any butter, I was going to use 4 tablespoons of oil instead, but forgot I had doubled the recipe size when adding the oil. Hence, I only added 2 tablespoons of oil instead of the 4 that doubling the recipe called for. I did not brush the skin with water since this was going to be a pizza crust instead of being plain crackers.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #164 on: August 14, 2013, 09:30:52 AM »
Looks pretty good though Nick...did you get any "soda" cracker taste?
Good catch on the oil; that should make a big difference next go around. Personally, I would like to see the crust color quite a bit lighter....maybe 450 par and then 425 bake.  Keep up the great work man, appreciate it!  :chef:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #165 on: August 14, 2013, 10:51:50 AM »
No soda taste that I could detect. I know if you use too much, the product can have a medicine taste. I had made another skin two nights before using a different recipe. It also had that yellow cast to the skin and it was hard like peanut brittle. I have heard that baking soda can cause browning in baked and fried goods. I am just going to make some soda crackers again. If they turn out OK, I will do a pizza crust using the same recipe. If I like the results, I will start upping the baking soda till I just get a faint hint of the flavor. I won't post results on those, but will post after I start getting some better results. This may take a lot of tries and time. The toppings won't be up to par either. I am more interested in getting the skin right.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #166 on: August 14, 2013, 11:16:08 AM »
No soda taste that I could detect. I know if you use too much, the product can have a medicine taste. I had made another skin two nights before using a different recipe. It also had that yellow cast to the skin and it was hard like peanut brittle. I have heard that baking soda can cause browning in baked and fried goods. I am just going to make some soda crackers again. If they turn out OK, I will do a pizza crust using the same recipe. If I like the results, I will start upping the baking soda till I just get a faint hint of the flavor. I won't post results on those, but will post after I start getting some better results. This may take a lot of tries and time. The toppings won't be up to par either. I am more interested in getting the skin right.
10-4...sounds good.   And yes, soda adds browning; The Dough Doctor just posted about that over on the sweet an sour chicken thread.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #167 on: August 18, 2013, 09:37:01 PM »
Just an update, no pics. I did the cracker recipe with baking soda and without. I was not happy with the results. The skins were not very crispy, and a little leathery. It did have some of the qualities of a PH pizza skin, but was too soft. The skins with the baking soda had a slight tingle to the tongue when eating, not sure what that means. I am thinking that the hydration may be too high. So, I will lower it on my next try. Sorry, for the bad news, but it makes me want to keep giving it the old college try. As an artist, 75% of all paintings I do are losers. That is the norm. So, having failures is the road to learning what works and what does not.

Offline norma427

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #168 on: August 18, 2013, 10:41:41 PM »
Nick,

It is great that you gave the baking soda the old college try.  8) I agree that is the way we all learn. 

I didn't exactly work with baking soda in any cracker style pizza crust, but did work with Clabber Girl baking powder and IDY to make a Sukie Pizza with Peter's help and formulation at Reply 63 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137736.html#msg137736  The Sukie pizza with the chemical leavening system and IDY did turn out well at Reply 74 and the next posts.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137842.html#msg137842 

Dont' ask me to explain a chemical leavening system though in combination with IDY.  That is far too complicated for me to do.  :-D

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #169 on: January 19, 2014, 01:27:55 PM »
 I ran across the Pat's pizza thread in the Chicago style section. I thought it would be interesting to let the skin sit in the fridge for a few hours before topping like the Pat's pizza in the video. I used my cracker crust recipe and let the dough sit in the fridge for 48 hours. I let the dough warm up on the counter for 2 hours before rolling out. I rolled the skin thinner than my normal cracker crust. I placed it in between 2 sheets of parchment paper and put it in the fridge for 3 hours. I removed the skin which was drier and docked it very heavily. I sprayed the crust with oil, then topped with sauce and toppings. I placed it on a 550 degree stone, and set the oven temp to 450. I cooked the pie about 10 minutes before I pulled it.
  It was very crispy and had a little lamination also. The crust was good and crispy, but a little harder to bite through than my normal cracker crusts. I am going to try this again and use a combo of KAAP and KABF to see if it will give me a softer bite. My taster liked it. Of course using the Garvey sausage recipe and Pete's PJ's clone sauce, it was mighty tasty. It was the closest I have gotten to a 60's era PH thin but the bite was harder than the PH crust.
 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 01:40:55 PM by nick57 »


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #170 on: January 19, 2014, 09:07:00 PM »
Wow...that pizza looks really tasty Nick. Keep up the good work and experiments dude!  :chef:

Bob
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Offline nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #171 on: January 19, 2014, 11:26:05 PM »
Thanks Bob ;D I really liked how this one turned out. I am getting closer to the PH thin. On my next pie I will go with a 20% AP and 80% BF in the hopes of getting a lighter bite. I remember the crust from the mid 60's as having a delicate bite, almost like biting into air. It was crispy but had a very easy bite, and did not fill you up. I may have to make my fave pie (Chi Town thin) before I try this style again. One thing I did not like was the reheated leftovers. I did the usual in the pan reheat, and the skin did not crisp up, not sure how to remedy that.

Offline nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #172 on: January 19, 2014, 11:38:06 PM »
I forgot to mention that I may not par bake the skin anymore. By drying the skin and docking, plus coating in oil, I did not have the gum line problem. I will dock the next a little less to get more lamination. I did the heavy docking thinking the skin would rise and become more bread like than cracker.The way it is going, I will make my purrrfect pie, then die the next day. What a way to go :-D

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #173 on: January 29, 2014, 10:23:51 PM »
Thanks Bob ;D I really liked how this one turned out. I am getting closer to the PH thin. On my next pie I will go with a 20% AP and 80% BF in the hopes of getting a lighter bite. I remember the crust from the mid 60's as having a delicate bite, almost like biting into air. It was crispy but had a very easy bite, and did not fill you up. I may have to make my fave pie (Chi Town thin) before I try this style again. One thing I did not like was the reheated leftovers. I did the usual in the pan reheat, and the skin did not crisp up, not sure how to remedy that.

If you would like a softer bite ( but still just as crispy ) you can use 10% semolina and 90% AP  You can expirement up to 15% semolina.  The reheat will be better as well. BF will get you a thougher chew.  The Semolina might get you closer to your desired texture.  Good luck!

Offline nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #174 on: January 30, 2014, 04:29:06 PM »
Thanks for the info PizzaGarage! I'm gonna try the mix of AP/BF on next try. I liked how my crust turned out on my Chi town pie using AP flour. I do have some semolina and AP flour on hand, so I will give it a try. Do I need to adjust my hydration when using this combo of flours?

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #175 on: January 31, 2014, 12:27:57 PM »
No, you will not.  At 47% you have plenty of hydration for this style.

The Semolina will have a nice effect, you will have the same crispy texture on first bite, but a lighter chew.  It breaks up much faster and is more delicate after first bite.  Its a great addition to this style.  If you want a richer flavor and more crisp, you can move to a 48hr cold ferment (As you are now doing i think).  A good idea to reduce yeast for that duration, I use .375 for 48 hour.  There is a substantial flavor impact moving to 48 (if you want to wait that long).   Get the Dough out of the mixer at 75-80, ball it up and right into the fridge w/no counter warmup.  There are all sorts of things you can do with this recipe, but doing one thing at a time works best - like adding the Semolina to get the texture and bit you are looking for.  I think 10% is perfect.

An example of those are :

Bumping salt up to 1.5 to 1.75
Reducing IDY for longer ferment
Moving to 475 for Parbake + Cook time
Using a light coating of Crisco Butter flavor shortening in the Pan or non butter flavor
Using a good pure OO in the dough (for a little extra flavor)
Laminating and re-rolling
Eliminating the Fridge time
Applying cheese first, then sauce then more cheese (mega crispy)

Everyone has opinions, these are just a few of mine.  I'm making this style tonight and it's my favorite.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #176 on: January 31, 2014, 02:28:59 PM »
I remember the crust from the mid 60's as having a delicate bite, almost like biting into air. It was crispy but had a very easy bite, and did not fill you up.
I believe you have a good grasp of this once great pizza that they used to make. I am watching you closely Nick and am hoping for your success...I think you will do it man!  :chef:

I liked what pizzagarage said about lightly oiling the cutter pan. I breifly worked a PH back in the day and remember all the pans would be slightly greasy from all the previous bakes.
Also, I really like that you are now moving away from par baking the crust. It should not be necessary, even in a home oven, if one can just get the dough figured out/right.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #177 on: January 31, 2014, 04:12:32 PM »
Thanks for the tips guys! I will try these on my next attempt. I just got home from a place called New York Pizza. I've been wanting to go there for along time, they have been in business for 40 years. They sell slices and 16" pies. I ordered the 16 incher with sausage and shrooms. It was the best pizza my date and I have ever eaten. I will post pics and a description in the New York thread. Of course I live in Tulsa and have never had an authentic NY pie, so hopefully this is close.